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Hi everyone out there,

a question here from someone with very little experience of the Irish session, though I seem to be 'getting there' at last at our session in Little Rock, Arkansas, not getting quite as many ugly glares as I once was, and getting an occasional positive statement (very occasional). So we had a little session the otherday which was being sensitively directed (read dominated) by a very good fiddler; she was playing very fast (as she often does) and I could not keep up with her - no surprize there but as I looked round I noticed that our button accordianist and the banjo player (both great players, both having played for many years) were quitting too. A flute player, a guitarist and of course three bodhran players were hanging in there.

So, can some instruments be played faster than others? that being of players with the same level of experience. No comment required re. said bodhran players.

 

Thanks, Alan.

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I don't know but I supect like you that the fiddle can be played very fast fairly readily. The fiddler you describe I suspect I would probably characterise if I knew her not as good but as a pain in the bum. Playing tunes so fast other competent players can't join in is not only selfish self gratification and ego-feeding, it does great disservice to the music itself. Avoid!

 

Chris

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Hi everyone out there,

                                a question here from someone with very little experience of the Irish session, though I seem to be 'getting there' at last at our session in Little Rock, Arkansas, not getting quite as many ugly glares as I once was, and getting an occasional positive statement (very occasional). So we had a little session the otherday which was being sensitively directed (read dominated) by a very good fiddler; she was playing very fast (as she often does) and I could not keep up with her - no surprize there but as I looked round I noticed that our button accordianist and the banjo player (both great players, both having played for many years) were quitting too. A flute player, a guitarist and of course three bodhran players were hanging in there.

So, can some instruments be played faster than others? that being of players with the same level of experience. No comment required re. said bodhran players.

 

 

I suppose its possible, but it really is rather tough to be sure... everyone has their own pace on picking up tunes and speed so its hard to be sure its the player or the instrument that is slowing them down.

 

It is possible that the Box player and the Banjo player were not quiting because they couldn't keep up but rather because they didn't like the way that the fiddle player was dominating things. Way too many sessions become ego fests for some players and it is a real shame.

 

--

Bill

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...we had a little session the otherday which was being sensitively directed (read dominated) by a very good fiddler; she was playing very fast (as she often does) and I could not keep up with her ... can some instruments be played faster than others?

Well, some concertinas are quicker than others, but I know that's not what you meant.

 

I might think that in some ways the fiddle may be inherently faster than, e.g., the banjo, simply because the motions required (not to be confused with the motions sometimes used) are smaller, BUT... we have a banjo player around here who often plays so fast that noone can keep up, at first the rest of us (including fiddlers), but eventually even himself. ;)

 

In fact, which instrument is "fastest" can depend significantly on the tune being played. Some tunes are easier on the fiddle than on concertina or banjo, and I'm sure there are others where the opposite is true. E.g., many currently popular fiddle tunes are heavy on quick repeats of the same note, something that's easy to do with a fiddle bow, but not as easy with a banjo pick or on a whistle or concertina. Certain arpeggios, on the other hand, may be easier on concerina. With the "faster is better" crowd, older, more singable melodies are often neglected, or even actively avoided. Is it possible that your fiddler's dominance isn't limited to her playing, but to selection of fiddle-frenzyfriendly tunes that she finds easier to play fast?

 

A separate question, of course, is whether she can play slow, e.g., like Kevin Burke or Martin Hayes at their lyrical best. If not, I would say she's not very good. Fast is often quite unmusical. Have you tried asking her to slow down?

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Fast is often quite unmusical.

 

Totaly agree with this statement. In some ways i think it is easier to play a tune fast because you can get caught up in the rhythm of it. However to other people it probably sounds like an expressionless stream of notes. The really good people in the session are those who can play fast and slow, and can add expression and feeling to the music.

 

You can also get this with singers who are obviously loving the sound as they hear it in their own head - while the rest of us shuffle off as subtly as possible to use the bathroom or get another drink to avoid the dreadful din.

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You can also get this with singers who are obviously loving the sound as they hear it in their own head - while the rest of us shuffle off as subtly as possible to use the bathroom or get another drink to avoid the dreadful din.

Just listen to a recording of yourself and observe how different it sounds, personally I can't stand it!

 

Derek

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It's a rare thing to enjoy the sound of your own voice. We don't actually "hear" it inside of our selves, we feel it. That's why for most of us it a shock to "hear" it recorded. No, there is nothing wrong with the recorder....unfortunately. :(

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There are significant differences in the speed at which some passages in certain tunes can be played on different instruments.

For example the "sailor's hornpipe" (the cliff?) has parts that are easy on the english and difficult on the anglo and vice versa for a different part of the tune. Anne and I accuse each other of speeding up at these points but it is probably just subjective perception based on the problems we each are having.

Likewise there are tunes that are difficult on both our types of concertina, yet OK on a fiddle.

Try playing in Bb and see how the fiddle players like that!

 

Robin Madge

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There are significant differences in the speed at which some passages in certain tunes can be played on different instruments.

 

Absolutely true. Try playing Calliope House at 160 beats; that's really hard on a concertina, but not that big a deal for a good fiddler, who uses numerous tricks to smooth out the playing.

 

That said, I believe there is a real obsession with playing unnecessarily fast, to the point where the music is no longer musical, as a previous poster said.

 

It's not a race, it's music, but people forget that, and ignore the fact that some tunes sound amazing when played at a deliberate pace (Golden Eagle is one I'm working on now; heard it at a session played at b reakneck speed and didn't like it; heard it on a CD played very slowly and it was wonderful).

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There are significant differences in the speed at which some passages in certain tunes can be played on different instruments.

 

Absolutely true. Try playing Calliope House at 160 beats; that's really hard on a concertina, but not that big a deal for a good fiddler, who uses numerous tricks to smooth out the playing.

 

That said, I believe there is a real obsession with playing unnecessarily fast, to the point where the music is no longer musical, as a previous poster said.

 

It's not a race, it's music, but people forget that, and ignore the fact that some tunes sound amazing when played at a deliberate pace (Golden Eagle is one I'm working on now; heard it at a session played at b reakneck speed and didn't like it; heard it on a CD played very slowly and it was wonderful).

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Thanks for the responses. Two things to say: first to Jim Lucas, yes several people have asked said fiddler to slow down but the speed issue seems to be causing some fractioning of our session, both camps sticking to their guns as it were. Another tempo thing the "fast" camp like to do is to start at a moderate tempo and speed to a frenzied finish! They tell us tortoises that this is a 'real listener pleaser'.

On tape recorders: I think everyone, singers or instumentalists should tape themselves often - this has been a great learning devise for me - it really helps to improve your playing and singing - I do both. It may be a shock the first time you hear yourself but don't avoid it, it shows you which way you need to go and it really helps the old ego to know when (if) you are improving.

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... yes several people have asked said fiddler to slow down but the speed issue seems to be causing some fractioning of our session, both camps sticking to their guns as it were.

Why "but"? Maybe having two separate sessions would be a good idea. Some folks (both musicians and "audience") will prefer the one, some the other, and some both. (Also some for "neither", but I'd guess they're alrady staying away.) Perhaps collective taste will be such that one or the other will die, but perhaps both will remain healthy.

 

Another tempo thing the "fast" camp like to do is to start at a moderate tempo and speed to a frenzied finish! They tell us tortoises that this is a 'real listener pleaser'.

Depends on the listener, and for some listeners (e.g., me), a little goes a long way. I remember being really pleased the first time I heard a group play Irish dance tunes with highland pipes and African drums, and I remember being really annoyed and bored the first time I heard an entire evening of nothing but. One thing I like is variety.

 

Another possibility -- theoretically -- is to mix up the "slow" and the fast, with "the hares" either joining "the tortoises" in doing slow tunes/versions or at least letting them have balanced turns, while "the tortoises" also let "the hares" have their turns. But if one group (as you seem to imply) crowds out the other, then maybe that other group should find a separate venue (or simply another time) where the rule will be that very fast playing shall be at most rare.

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This is upsetting and makes me very sad. Alan, I'm sorry such has befallen you.

 

I suspect there is no genteel solution. Your fiddler is perhaps a control freak. It has been my sad experience that one of these characters when challenged (and that's how they will perceive any request for a moderation in tempo) will back themselves into a corner and delcare war. That's a drag! :angry:

 

Music for me is a communion of likeminded spirits. I would need to find another venue for that possibility.

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having never played in a session....

 

 

I can only say that if I met someone so bloodyminded that they aren't willing to accomodate others I tend to get stubborn and childish.

 

So I suggest you play a lot slower than you would normally on every song until one of the other faction complains. Then you can thumb your nose at them and say "when she slows down I'll speed up."

 

But hey that's just me ;)

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Thanks for the responses. Two things to say: first to Jim Lucas, yes several people have asked said fiddler to slow down but the speed issue seems to be causing some fractioning of our session, both camps sticking to their guns as it were. Another tempo thing the "fast" camp like to do is to start at a moderate tempo and speed to a frenzied finish! They tell us tortoises that this is a 'real listener pleaser'.

 

Just a couple of thoughts around here.

1. This is a session, presumably the primary purpose is for the enjoyment of the musicians (otherwise it is a gig)... while I am always glad when someone in the pub enjoys listening to what we play in our local sessions, I really am not playing for them, and I suspect the same is true of your "fast" camp.

 

2. Starting a tune at one tempo and then speeding it up either is a sign that they don't know to keep time (something I have been guilty of from time to time) or that they are deliberately showing off.. perhaps by forcing other players to drop out of the tune. In any case, to deliberately change the tempo in the middle of the tune.. at least in some sessions (in Baltimore at least) is definitely a breech of ettiquite.

 

I suppose we are lucky in Baltimore, the top guns around here are among the best players in the World. When a Brenden Mulvihill or a Billy McComiskey shows up at a session they don't need to show off for everyone to know how good they are; they will get plenty of attention just by being there.. most of it from us players who are honored to get a chance to play with them. Of course the fact that they and the other good players around here know thousands of tunes that the rest of us don't means they don't need to play super fast to drop us :).

 

--

Bill

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I don't get the modern obsession with fast playing. I've always preferred the Clare style. It's not really slow, it's not plain, but instead of forcing you through the tune, it seems that the tune carries you alongside it.

 

Of course, it's all a matter of taste. I just can't get into tunes played incredibly fast any more than a tune that's so ornamented that you can't make out the melody any more. Maybe I'm just getting old.

 

HEY YOU KIDS! TURN DOWN THAT STEREO!

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