Wolf Molkentin Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) Hi everyone, I reckon you trust me being well aware of previous discussions insofar. Here‘s what I‘m after: I‘m just acquainting myself with this beautiful brass-reeded instrument, which appears to be in higher pitch and meantone tuning. However, having adjusted my ears to the different sound of temperament tuning, I still notice some slightly odd notes. So I upgraded my tuner, tried quarter comma meantone tuning and tried to calibrate the pitch. Result is that every note (with the exeption of the two added enharmonic notes of course) falls well with the plus/minus 5 cent range, but only if I choose 449 (instead of 452 as expected). I do not intend to take it down anyway, as I want to use it as a solo instrument, or to accompany my (or my wife‘s) singing. So would you recommend to find the best-fitting pitch (probably 449) and touch just few reeds which are actually annoying me - which would rather mean to take them up one to three cents? Is quarter comma meantone the appropriate approach? Unfortunately, I can‘t try 1/5 comma as my tuner doesn’t provide that, but from what I’ve read 1/4 comma is what has been in use around 1860 - which I‘m told the instrument has been fabricated... Thank you in advance for any input - ? Edited February 9, 2019 by Wolf Molkentin re-corrected auto-correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_holden Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Why not? It sounds like it's already pretty close to in tune with itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted February 9, 2019 Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 Thank you for the reassuring reply Alex - I want to make sure to do the instrument justice, as any taking-up would increase the degree required to take it down to concert pitch at some point later. I however won’t be the one, and a few cents are doing no harm anyway I guess. Filing brass reeds at the tip is straight forward I reckon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) Nice concertina Wolf !! Firstly I never use these pre-programmed temperaments that modern tuners provide and I suggest you question your tuner as to what values it is actually ascribing to each note. If the actual basis of its 1/4 Comma setting was C then it might well show you a best fit of 449 hertz for A. When actually the pich might be is closer to 452hz. with A as the centre point of the Meantone values. I'll admit I have not thought this through completely yet but see if you can discover what your tuner is programmed to. Electronic tuners are made to measure 12 notes to the octave and the EC has 14 so this is the way I would proceed: Turn off the 1/4 Comma programme and start with the ET setting. Measure the pitches of the D#'s and Eb's and find where they are equally sharp and flat and see if the A's are sitting at the centre point between the D#'s and Eb's. That should tell you IF A is the Zero point of the Meantone and what pitch it was originally ( or the last time) tuned to. So usually Meantone EC's are tuned with the A as the zero point , because this gives a reasonable spacing of the enharmonics.,.. which might be sharp or flat of today's standard pitch... If you require actual 'cent' offsets for each note I have them to hand or you'll find them on the forums somewhere. Edited February 9, 2019 by Geoff Wooff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Agree with Geoffs point about the pitch centre for 1/4 comma. Also be aware that electronic tuners in pitch detect mode (the normal default) usually are unable to distinguish between enharmonic notes so if you see for example an Eb that is seriously flat eg 20+ cents, then it perhaps should be D# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Be very carefull sharpening those brass reeds they are delicate . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted February 9, 2019 Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, Theo said: Also be aware that electronic tuners in pitch detect mode (the normal default) usually are unable to distinguish between enharmonic notes so if you see for example an Eb that is seriously flat eg 20+ cents, then it perhaps should be D# I noticed that, finding that the tuner has the rather common note, just as you are saying: no D# and no Ab (but rather 40 cents then...). As to the root note, isn‘t it the other way around insofar 439 should indicate C as the root (equivalent to 452 in ET)? I‘ll have to check that with the tuner set to ET... Re the „center“, I have read a lot today - wouldn’t the ? fith between G# and Eb prompt exactly to add the 13. and 14. note (enharmonics Ab and D#)? so A and D are in the middle of the entire circle of fifths as used in 1/4 meantone, not just for an EC? this is what I seem to find in any table or diagram... (with some calling the tuning „D-based“, which figures in fact as the root with the best overall approximation to just intervals). my tuner says „Aron“... but gives me the choice of a key (!?), however I didn‘t notice many differences as yet. thanks again and best wishes - ? Edited February 10, 2019 by Wolf Molkentin expanded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) Further examining seemed to confirm my understanding that meantone tuning in „the key of C“ (or in fact whatever; see below), according to my tuner, is providing a just major third above (E) and below (Ab, whereas G# to C wouldn’t form a third anyway, but a diminished fourth) and the ? (as mentioned above) between G# and Eb (in fact a diminished sixth). Setting the tuner to „the key of D“ resulted most notably in indicating the Bb as way too sharp (because apparently an A# would be expected instead), and I reckon the Eb would deemed wrong as well this way... (whereas setting it to „the key of A“ should even compromise the F, interpreting the respective note as an E#). This leads me to the notion that the odd intervals in meantone temperament are depending not from the tuning of white and black keys (the latter in two - enharmonic - variants each), but where the sharps and the flats end resp. are being replaced with one another. Re the tuning I should be fine with 1/4 comma meantone „in the key of C“ (which seems to just say: no shifting in the circle of fifths, just the normal D-centered, as known from ancient Pythagoran tuning, or A-centered if we would choose D# over Eb) then, regardless of the root note (which may be A). It‘s just the slightly odd sounding notes that are indicated as flat... Objections, corrections? Thanks again in advance - ? Edited February 10, 2019 by Wolf Molkentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) I was not making great sense of you last post here Wolf... I know it is not easy to explain these things... but reading it through a few times I get the conclusion that you will just tackle the slightly odd sounding notes and leave all the others. This sounds like a good plan. As this instrument is still in Meantone and at a different pitch standard we can assume it has not been tuned 'in modern times' and in fact probably no work has been done on those reeds for perhaps a 100 years. So, with that in mind I would be inclined to clean each and every reed as grime build up on the tongues will alter the pitch, flattening notes . Well, good luck with the project. Geoff. Edited February 10, 2019 by Geoff Wooff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoopet Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) Geoff and Wolf, as far as know it was fine tuned to its original tuning by Colin dipper 6 or 7 years ago. Edited February 10, 2019 by scoopet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, scoopet said: Geoff and Wolf, as far as know it was fine tuned to its original tuning by Colin dipper 6 or 7 years ago. You beat me to mention that, Simon ? Maybe we could take the general discussion up again at some point later - I seem to understand the concept of 1/4 comma meantone much better now - and the remaining confusion seems to be about this particular tuner and the convention of setting a „key“ for the tuning/temperament, which might mean different things: • root note as to meeting the pitch of the respective ET (supposedly A=452 Hz) with which single note (tuning) • center of the tempering as located opposite to the wolf fifth (in the circle of fifths) • possibly instead of the latter meaning: C as having the wolf conventionally (as transfered from Pythagorean tuning) between G# and Eb As I‘m unable to measure at the moment I‘ll still have to verify whether or not my assumtion re the conventional meaning of „C“ is what my tuner (piascore/plusadd) is about. Re the project I reckon you‘re right Geoff - notes will be either well within the margin or - as including the wolf fifth via constructing the interval - way out of tune. As long as I‘m getting such a result only from the two enharmonics the scheme should be adequate IMO. Geoff, one question I‘d nevertheless like to raise again: when you‘re mentioning A as the appropriate center, it‘s about the relation to ET, isn’t it? inner relations of the temperament wouldn’t vary, would they? spacing of the enharmonics would be more equal when A would still be in common, but from A or D within the temperament the spacing to G#, Ab, Eb and D# would be independent of any center to my best understanding... Well, I cannot resist to mention the formula going through my head what setting a center or key can‘t mean IMO, now that I seem to be able to reshape it: • NOT: changing the internal relations between any single note by the name of C to B natural, the five sharps and the five flats (and in fact any other note such as ## or bb as well - as long as being strict with the names and thus the natural note it derives from and thus avoiding enharmonic confusion). Reason for that: the pattern is only broken through the inclusion of the wolf fifth, which would imply crossing the „border“ between sharps and flats. Best wishes - ? Edited February 10, 2019 by Wolf Molkentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Speaking as one who (a) has never tuned a concertina, and (b) is unfamiliar with the abilities and drawbacks of modern electronic tuners, might I suggest that rather than trust the tuner to parse the temperament, just use it to give you raw frequencies and do the math yourself, tuning each reed to the frequency you have calculated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 David, apart from my being fascinated by this entire temperament topic, your advice would be a good one if I was sure about the pitch level. As I am not, and want to touch as few reeds as possible, I would love to have a fitting scheme on the tuner (and reckon I have one, or find it if double-checking should prove me wrong), and then basically trust my ears where an adjustment to it would be required. Best wishes - ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 If Colin tuned the concertina you should not discount the possibility that he tuned it to 1/5th comma meantone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Theo said: If Colin tuned the concertina you should not discount the possibility that he tuned it to 1/5th comma meantone. Thank you for the hint Theo - however Simon had been informed that he downright refused, or at least was reluctant to alter pitch or temperament. So I went for 1/4 comma, which seems to fit... There‘s just one (flat) pull D and a pair of (important) F# which are really annoying me at the moment. I seem to understand that with 1/5 comma these sharps would supposed to be still higher, so they‘re clearly too low (have to check the valves, in the case of the D I can rule them out as I swapped the two reeds temporarily, resulting in a flat push D instead). Best wishes - ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Wolf, so this is the George Case I have played when it belonged to Simon ? So, if Colin Dipper tuned it to itself in 1/4 Comma then it should remain basically correct apart from the odd note as you suggest. You certainly do get 'wordy'... must be the Lawyer in you coming through. So, you have a D reed that is out of tune because you swapped the suck and blow reeds and two F#'s that appear wrong.. is that correct ? If so, measure the pitch of the other F#s which sound fine and note the difference in pitch between the goods and tha bads... Do this with the simple ET setting on your tuner and do not worry about those other temperament settings. Or, if you are concerned give us a list of the pitches of all the notes, in 'cent' deviations from Equal Temperament and someone here will be able to suggest where the zero point is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted February 11, 2019 Author Share Posted February 11, 2019 Geoff, re the technical issues you have it right. As to 19 minutes ago, Geoff Wooff said: you have a D reed that is out of tune because you swapped the suck and blow reeds I may just have to clarify: I'm sure one reed (and I believe I know which one) is out of tune because the pitches 1. differ und 2. remain the same regardless of the blow or suck position. Apart from that, I'm not advocating for my case (pun inevitable here) but in order to have my understanding of this temperament reassured or falsified resp. corrected. If this doesn't happen it will be either my fault, or it's just not possible to find a common langue by exchanging posts in this difficult matter - whatever, I'll leave it at that for now.... Thank you again for your input - ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted February 11, 2019 Author Share Posted February 11, 2019 a general question: given a third would be "pure" (as the "good" thirds in 1/4 comma meantone tuning), is there still a (lower) "difference tone" supposed to be heard by humans? the thirds of the George Case concertina, particularly the higher ones, have it, albeit sounding sweet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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