What Concertina-related items did you get for Christmas?

[saguaro_squeezer]

My lovely wife got me Gary Coover's excellent "Cowboy Concertina" and Ross Duffin's "How Equal Temperment Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)".  And Greg Jowaisas has a 35b Crane with my name on it.  I'm starting with inner peace while working towards the world version!

[Isel]

I see your collection is  bursting into bloom as saguaro does in spring?

Whiles the real one opens her eyes... . I just received these mini "Holdentinas" for my couple?

 

 

[adamhuestis]

I bought myself Gary Coover’s cowboy and pirate song books. 

[Richard Mellish]

On 12/25/2018 at 7:58 PM, saguaro_squeezer said:

My lovely wife got me ... Ross Duffin's "How Equal Temperment Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)".

That may deserve a thread of its own, but I'm posting here to be going on with. With Anglos, few of us stray far from the basic keys and very few of us stray very far, so the benefit of equal temperament is largely lost, while the harmonic structure of the reed sound can make the somewhat discordant major thirds a significant drawback. I have long thought that for Anglos mean-tone would be more appropriate than equal temperament. "Just" tuning is even better for a single key but introduces problems with even an Anglo's two keys and worse problems with the relative minors.

[saguaro_squeezer]

Richard, my Tedrow “Harley” Anglo is in 1/4 comma meantone and I didn’t have the foggiest idea of what that meant at the beginning.  But in playing it, I did discover that the G# to D# was just horrendous.  But I am seduced by the sweetness of the thirds, I must admit.

 

So, the book helped explain more of what I found in the available c.net posts.

[Little John]

2 hours ago, Richard Mellish said:

With Anglos, few of us stray far from the basic keys and very few of us stray very far, so the benefit of equal temperament is largely lost, while the harmonic structure of the reed sound can make the somewhat discordant major thirds a significant drawback. I have long thought that for Anglos mean-tone would be more appropriate than equal temperament. "Just" tuning is even better for a single key but introduces problems with even an Anglo's two keys and worse problems with the relative minors.

 

Richard - this isn't just true of Anglos. I had Ross Duffin's excellent book for Christmas last year, It was one of the reasons I took the plunge and had one of my Crane duets tuned to fifth comma mean-tone. It means I'm "limited" to keys from two flats to three sharps, but in reality that's hardly a limitation at all. Who needs to go outside that range?

 

51 minutes ago, saguaro_squeezer said:

Richard, my Tedrow “Harley” Anglo is in 1/4 comma meantone and I didn’t have the foggiest idea of what that meant at the beginning.  But in playing it, I did discover that the G# to D# was just horrendous.  But I am seduced by the sweetness of the thirds, I must admit.

 

So, the book helped explain more of what I found in the available c.net posts.

 

Saguaro_squeezer - if G# to D# sounds horrendous that will be because the "D#" isn't D#; it's Eb! That's the wolf fifth. It can be placed anywhere in the "circle of fifths", but placed there gives you the keys from two flats to three sharps I mentioned above.

 

LJ

[Jesse Smith]

I received a copy of Gary Coover's "Anglo Concertina in the Harmonic Style". I don't actually play the anglo concertina (yet!) as I am focusing on the D/G melodeon, but Gary's book has transcriptions of some of my favorite John Kirkpatrick tunes as well as plenty of other good stuff that works just as well on the anglo's close cousin. And someday when I do turn to the anglo concertina, this is definitely the style I want to play, so I was very happy to get this book now just in case it ever goes out of print. (I also own a copy of "Easy Anglo 1-2-3" which I bought when first deciding between the concertina and the melodeon.)

[saguaro_squeezer]

Little John, well after reading the book, I think that I'm going to test out some of the tunings on my double-strung harp, so that I can easily switch and compare them.  I want to see if 1/6-comma mean tone is better than ET, and might have one of the duets tuned to it.   I know that we had a couple of accoustics courses when I got my Music degree many moons ago and this has awakend that interest again ... hopefully for the better!

[David Barnert]

1 hour ago, saguaro_squeezer said:

I want to see if 1/6-comma mean tone is better than ET

 

Before getting too invested in 1/6-comma mean tone, have a look at this, particularly, the 2nd full paragraph on page 3.

[saguaro_squeezer]

Thanks, David.  Most interesting.  I guess the joy of being a novice is that you get to ask the less-informed questions ... but hopefully not too many times!

[Richard Mellish]

45 minutes ago, David Barnert said:

 

Before getting too invested in 1/6-comma mean tone, have a look at this, particularly, the 2nd full paragraph on page 3.

That paragraph appears to contradict itself, referring to the "false conception of the mean tone as a major second that is half the size of a major third" but then working out that it is SQRT(5/4), which is indeed half of a major third. I'm sure the reviewer didn't intend to contradict himself, but I'm blowed if I understand what he did intend.

[David Barnert]

2 hours ago, Richard Mellish said:

That paragraph appears to contradict itself, referring to the "false conception of the mean tone as a major second that is half the size of a major third" but then working out that it is SQRT(5/4), which is indeed half of a major third. I'm sure the reviewer didn't intend to contradict himself, but I'm blowed if I understand what he did intend.

 

I think what he's saying is that the mean tone is not half of just any major 3rd (different size major 3rds appear in different tunings), it is half of the major 3rd that appears in 1/4 comma (and just intonation). An equal tempered major second is half of an equal tempered major third, but it is not a mean tone.

[Wolf Molkentin]

a truly eye-opening review as for me, thanks for posting (and I agree with David‘s most recent statement)

[Little John]

On 12/27/2018 at 9:03 PM, David Barnert said:

 

Before getting too invested in 1/6-comma mean tone, have a look at this, particularly, the 2nd full paragraph on page 3.

 

Rasch's review seems rather mean-spirited to me. Perhaps that's because he doesn't seem to understand what Duffin's book is about. Rasch's first paragraphs states "I expected that Duffin’s book would explain How ET Ruined Harmony, preferably after an exposition proving (or at least either demonstrating or suggesting) that Harmony Was Ruined in general, and by ET in particular." [My emphasis.] What does Rasch means by "harmony was ruined in general"? There are possible answers, but without qualification it's a meaningless statement. In my view Duffin's book does exactly what it says it does, and in a very readable and understandable way. And that's true even if, as Rasch claims, there are one or two technical errors; though I am not convinced there are.

 

On 12/27/2018 at 9:53 PM, Richard Mellish said:

That paragraph appears to contradict itself, referring to the "false conception of the mean tone as a major second that is half the size of a major third" but then working out that it is SQRT(5/4), which is indeed half of a major third. I'm sure the reviewer didn't intend to contradict himself, but I'm blowed if I understand what he did intend.

 

I could do the maths for myself if I could be bothered, but I'll simply point out that Richard isn't the only one to find it puzzling. I find Bradley Lehman's statement more plausible: "The word "meantone" can apply here, because in all the correctly spelled major thirds (such as C-D-E), taken melodically, the middle note is exactly at a mean (average) frequency. It is a mean tone, as opposed to a 9:8 tone or a 10:9 tone from just intonation. The two fifths to generate that tone, from either direction, are equally sized because all the fifths are equally sized. Therefore it is at the center, average, position within the major third." And that's true of all regular tunings: 1/4 comma, 1/5 comma, 1/6 comma and even 1/12 comma (ET).

 

It doesn't do to get too bogged down in academic discussion. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I'm pleased I took the plunge, and I have Duffins's book in large part to thank for that.

 

LJ

[Isel]

On 12/27/2018 at 10:03 PM, David Barnert said:

 

Before getting too invested in 1/6-comma mean tone, have a look at this, particularly, the 2nd full paragraph on page 3.

This pudding is tastefull...though I get feeling as I'd try to square the circle (of fifhts) ?

I agree David, all advertisements are wellcome. For more information about 1/6 comma, I have found interesting (because it discusses the compromise of playing with other musicians and still they were happy with your pitch) this Duffin's text (bellow is the link to page 4; it is important to read, at least, the final paragraphs of page 3)

http://casfaculty.case.edu/ross-duffin/why-i-hate-vallotti-or-is-it-young-4-1/

 

Happy new year for all you!!

Israel

Edited December 31, 2018 by Isel
correction