Breaking-in Reeds

[Richard Morse]

*Tuning* remains *only* the reed filing job....

agree?

Yes.

 

(re)-voicing of the "wonky" reeds did that help to regain the 'onset'=making them NOT slow to speak? or did they remain being slower than the new ones?

Revoicing enabled the reeds to speak as quickly as the new ones with proper voicing.

 

Back to my experience on pitch change with inactive instruments.Maybe there is mutual misunderstanding....The instruments have been "untouched" (=inactive) for years....I had restored them mechanically and revalved them after initially measuring response and frequency of all reeds.Measuring them again. Playing for some time. Measuring again. ( Later on tuning the instruments....)

To me (and probably most people?) "untouched" means not played, and certainly - not restored. To be clear (unmisleading), you should have said "But my experince from instruments not having been touched for long periods which I have subsequently revalved but not retuned does say that reeds do go out of tune." And then followed that up by clarifying WHEN you tested the pitch of the reeds.

[goran rahm]

QUOTE

Goran:(re)-voicing of the "wonky" reeds did that help to regain the 'onset'=making them NOT slow to speak? or did they remain being slower than the new ones?

 

Rich:"Revoicing enabled the reeds to speak as quickly as the new ones with proper voicing."

 

Goran now: So evidently the 'slowness to speak defect' of the 'wonky' reeds could be completely cured and nothing harmful about it..mainly a change that can be expected from playing (a bit more from vigorous playing) and sort of 'service routine'

 

You did not comment on the 'reduced loudness defect' of the wonly reeds though...what is your view on my questions in the previous message?

 

QUOTE

Goran:Back to my experience on pitch change with inactive instruments.Maybe there is mutual misunderstanding....The instruments have been "untouched" (=inactive) for years....I had restored them mechanically and revalved them after initially measuring response and frequency of all reeds.Measuring them again. Playing for some time. Measuring again. ( Later on tuning the instruments....)

 

Rich:To me (and probably most people?) "untouched" means not played, and certainly - not restored. To be clear (unmisleading), you should have said "But my experince from instruments not having been touched for long periods which I have subsequently revalved but not retuned does say that reeds do go out of tune." And then followed that up by clarifying WHEN you tested the pitch of the reeds.

 

Goran now:OK if you think so that's allright...but it is clear now what I mean(t) is it not?

I have found the *reeds* goinging out of tune:

- they have not been preserving their original pitch. The "original pitch" can be

judged for instance when knowing that a Wheatstone treble delivered in the early

1930s was tuned to a=435 and while knowing from the original owner that it had never been retuned (evident also from inspection of the reeds...) I foundvariation in the 'tuning levels' (measured in the test bench)

- after the said periods of playing some of this variation was reduced, some reeds

even regained their equal a435 tuning

- some others did so after resetting/voicing too but that is another matter

- some did not but had to be 'retuned'

 

I hope it is less obscure now......comments?

 

Goran Rahm

[Richard Morse]

You did not comment on the 'reduced loudness defect' of the wonly reeds though...what is your view on my questions in the previous message?

I think your question was previously stated as: "Have the reeds become more flexible/pressure?? What you say later on about metal fatigue speaks against that, or?" to which I thought you meant "reduced loudness defect"....

 

And I responded: "I don't have the tools or time to measure such things" seeing as you are very methodically inclined. My unmeasured sense, however, is that no matter what I tried, I was unable to un-reduce the loudness defect (IOW, to "cure" the reed from the loudness defect or to make it perform better).

 

it is clear now what I mean(t) is it not? I have found the *reeds* goinging out of tune:

- they have not been preserving their original pitch.... the original owner that it had never been retuned....

- after the said periods of playing some of this variation was reduced, some reeds

even regained their equal a435 tuning

- some did not but had to be 'retuned'

 

I hope it is less obscure now......comments?

I think I've got it straight. Combining your addition above with your other posts concerning this issue, it sounds like you pitch tested a box that hadn't been used in many years to find it out-of-pitch compared to the pitch it was originally made with. You then played it for awhile and the pitch of some reeds changed somewhat. You then revalved it and the pitch of some reeds were altered again. Eventually you tuned the reeds.

 

If that is correct, my original response is still appropriate. Concerning your initial playing of the dormant instrument with original old valves: "Possibly because the valves have stiffened up which will cause the pitch to change. And then after playing it in for awhile and the pitch changed, to which I said: "When limbered up to become closer to working the way they did when newer, the pitch of the reed with be closer to what it was then too."

[goran rahm]

Rich:I think I've got it straight. Combining your addition above with your other posts concerning this issue, it sounds like you pitch tested a box that hadn't been used in many years to find it out-of-pitch compared to the pitch it was originally made with. You then played it for awhile and the pitch of some reeds changed somewhat. You then revalved it and the pitch of some reeds were altered again. Eventually you tuned the reeds."

 

Goran now:Basically correct but the point remains that for some reeds the altered pitch

(the unexpected out of tune...not a435 equal pitch )was (mainly) unchanged when

measured *out of the instrument* in the test bench..(without valve)

 

Rich:If that is correct, my original response is still appropriate. Concerning your initial playing of the dormant instrument with original old valves: "Possibly because the valves have stiffened up which will cause the pitch to change. And then after playing it in for awhile and the pitch changed, to which I said: "When limbered up to become closer to working the way they did when newer, the pitch of the reed with be closer to what it was then too."

 

Goran: I am nitpicking again ....but not the "pitch of the reed" (because that has to be checked outside (or without the valve). I mean that in order to prevent misundertandings of the kind this thread illustrates we ought to agree upon some terminology specific for *reed pitch* and *note pitch* or whatever you think we should call it. You know what I mean....we "tune" the *reed* we "voice/set" the

*tip of the reed* we 'model' (or what you lke) the *valve* and ALL of it may

effect the resultant pitch/frequency at a certain pressure the instrument presents.

 

The riddle I am still pondering about is that the*reed* seems to have changed its

own pitch while having been inactive for a period and this remains my own

experience and I take it you don't agree...? but in the other hand ...have you checked all the factors as closely with concertinas? with accordions it is quite different since we don't usually have the same simple possibilies to check the reed itself.

One factor we haven't mentioned is that corrosion may have influence on the pitch

but in some of the instruments I have had there was no macroskopic corrosion at all however.

 

Goran

[Richard Morse]

It seems like we really do have a communication problem and possibly quite different methodological procedures as well.

 

For us (my music business) the condition of a reed is of primary importance and the pitch (and response) of a reed in-box is our focus. Whatever pitch a reed is out-of-box (without valve) is just a relative blip on the screen. Your focus on the pitch of a reed out-of-box was not initially clear and something I hadn't considered.

 

...but the point remains that for some reeds the altered pitch... was... unchanged when measured *out of the instrument* in the test bench..(without valve)

Semantics. "Altered" to me means "Something actively changed". That is why I had originally thought you had revalved or tuned the reeds - as opposed to a passive change (as in inactivity for a period of time). "Changed" is a "resultant state" of something which is different than it was before.

 

Your statement there sounds like you've witnessed some reeds having the same pitch in-box as out-of-box (without valve). If so, my experience is that that is extremely unusual.

 

...but not the "pitch of the reed" (because that has to be checked outside (or without the valve). I mean that in order to prevent misundertandings of the kind this thread illustrates we ought to agree upon some terminology specific for *reed pitch*

This is where our methodologies diverge? We very carefully measure reed pitch in-box. Reeds do not "have" to be checked out-of-box. That's not to say that we don't, but so often when a reed is only out a couple or three cents, it's so easy (with enough experience, I guess) to alter the reed's pitch by exactly that amount that we don't waste time testing or ascertaining out-of-box pitch.

 

Pitch is pitch (frequency measurement), but we need to be clear under what circumstances that pitch is measured.

 

The riddle I am still pondering about is that the*reed* seems to have changed its own pitch while having been inactive for a period and this remains my own experience and I take it you don't agree...?

I haven't experienced reed pitch change due solely to time.

 

have you checked all the factors as closely with concertinas?

I've checked as many factors as I'm aware of and to the depth that makes sense given my concerns. I've limited my discussions here to concertina reed experiences as it seemed appropriate.

[goran rahm]

Rich:Your statement there sounds like you've witnessed some reeds having the same pitch in-box as out-of-box (without valve). If so, my experience is that that is extremely unusual.

 

Goran: No...! Seems to be another misunderstanding :-) I willingly guess that

I may have expressed myself poorly. Again:

I assume the instrument was tuned originally to said a435. I know it has not been

retuned. Noticing that an out of tune note is say -10 cent in the box I find that out of tune reed measured outside (in the test bench) being -5 cent. Revalving may

give the result that it is say -8 cent in the box. Now I start playing the instrument

and half a year later conditions *may* have changed again or the reed is still -5 cent measured in the bench.

Some possibilities seem to be present

- either has the reed lowered its pitch during the period of inactivity or

- it was low before that period due to either

x having lowered its pitch from playing in the period prior to inactivity or

y being not accurately in pitch even at delivery

 

Judging from these old instruments no more knowledge is gained

The experience from similar measurements on 'my own' instruments undergoing

reconditioning and tuning and also presenting 'changes of pitch' over time seems

to support that *reeds' may go out of pitch both from activity and inavtivity but I

have not managed to find out what is behind it. With activity we seem to agree

about a number of causes that 'the instrument' gets 'out of tune' and with the reed only the most common cause in my view is change in the setting. But there seems to be something more.....(corrosion also visually excluded)

Temperature? ...Athmospheric pressure?....Metal 'molecular realignment' as you

suggested regarding change of 'tone'?

 

Rich:This is where our methodologies diverge? We very carefully measure reed pitch in-box. Reeds do not "have" to be checked out-of-box. That's not to say that we don't, but so often when a reed is only out a couple or three cents, it's so easy (with enough experience, I guess) to alter the reed's pitch by exactly that amount that we don't waste time testing or ascertaining out-of-box pitch.

 

Goran: Understandable...YOU work mainly for 'a living' ..doing the job 'practically'....I work for 'a hobby' having fun in trying to learn as much as the

facilities admit

 

Rich:I haven't experienced reed pitch change due solely to time.

 

Goran: No I have understood this so remains if you have 'wasted' your time like I have trying to observe it.....Maybe there is something left for you to notice...

Remember I am not absolutely sure *what* I have observed....say that it IS the temperature or air pressure just for fun then there may be NO *reed* change at all and I have vainly adjusted the tuning to the climate....OR there IS 'molecular realignment'....whatever??? and why?? or something else...