Breaking-in Reeds

[Rex]

My very first (and very cheap) concertina had very stiff bellows when new and wanted to stay closed all the time. This made it very hard to play notes on the draw. Since I found it easier to push than to draw I stored this instrument with the bellows extended until it was broken in a bit. This actually made it easier to play. In my case the "sping action" was working against me on the draw. Later I stored it closed. I think storing it closed leaves less air in the instrument which means also less humidity to play havoc with metal parts, but I am no expert and have no idea if this has any effect on anything. Never the less, I now store my instruments closed.

 

On the breaking in of instruments (again I am not an expert) I do know that leaving a stringed instrument in front of your stereo speakers and playing CDs of the music the instrument is intended for will speed up the break in process on such instruments. Something to do with sympathetic vibrations. I have absolutly no idea if this same process works for free reeds, but I don't see how it can hurt.

[Helen]

Hiya Rex,

 

My mandolin is already broken in. Do you think I should play music for it to keep it happy? I'm not sure what kind of music it likes. I like Irish, folk, cajun, klezmer, Cape Breton, well I guess I like most everything. Maybe I'll get it it's own CD player.

 

All teasing aside, I guess it's possible that the strings could vibrate in sympathy and the break in process could be assisted. It's just that it sounds so science fiction.

 

It is kind of neat when you think about it.

Thanks,

Helen

[Rhomylly]

(caught in the act of moving her concertina next to CD player in her work cubicle that is currently blasting some very nice Ian Robb music)

 

Hey, can't hurt!

 

One of the many nice things about futzing around with that 1924 Wheatstone last week was how beautifully broken in the bellows were. I made the analogy at the time: friend's old Wheatstone = butter; my new Hohner = potato chips.

 

Maybe I shouldn't store it with the bellows straps snapped?

[Rex]

I was just imagining you putting head phones on you concertina so you don't bother your coworkers. LOL.

Actually from what I have read, the break in on stringed instruments has nothing to do with the strings, otherwise you would need to break it in again each time you changed string. It is the wood soundboard (top) that needs to "learn" to vibrate with the strings. I actually had a German made fiddle that an old fellow had stored for 75 years in a closet. He sold it at an auction. It sounded terrible for a month then over the period of one week the thing just started to sing. I have since sold that same instrument to a local player who is very good (I never was and no longer own any fiddles) and he absolutly loves the tone of it. The first month I had it it sounded like a bag full of cats fighting.

So remember, do not leave your instrument next to a bag of cats!

A note to animal lovers: I have never placed a cat in a bag!

[Helen]

Hiya,

 

I am posting to this thread to bring it back up for Mavityre. I apologize, I don't know how to tell someone the way to locate old posts.

 

Hope this is helpful for your concerns about the reeds in your new instrument.

 

Helen

 

edited to fix typo

Edited October 27, 2003 by Helen

[chris vonderborch]

I have just re-made steel reeds for an English concertina that I put together several years ago. Whilst one needs to be well aware of objectivity vs subjectivity when judging tonal quality and playability, I am fairly certain that I have detected an improvement in tone and response during the 2 weeks since I filed the reed-steel. I have also noticed this in an Anglo that I made. OK, I realize that controlled physical tests are required to fully verify this; however,I have a hypothesis that some sort of relaxation(??) takes place in freshly-worked spring steel in a relatively short period, and that this is advantageous to the concertina's sound.

[Michael Reid]

I'm glad that this thread has come back. I was recently thinking of trying to restart it, because it veered off to a discussion of bellows and then faded away without any comment from some of the makers whom I was hoping would participate.

 

To recap, Rich Morse stated his opinion that

...sustained [or] frequent "hard" playing during the first few months of a reed's life seems to result in poor subsequent performance. I advocate playing boxes often and with varying stress - but without exceeding maybe 85 or 90% for an appreciable length of time during an initial period.

Rich based this opinion, in part, on experience acquired in selling many dozens of melodeons to Morris musicians, who tend to play at full throttle, and then complain that their recently acquired box has become lifeless:

The preponderance of slow-acting, muffly-sounding, and tough-to-play boxes started out their life in the hands of a Morris player.

Chris, you observed that newly made reeds seem to develop a better sound over a short period (two weeks). That in itself is an interesting observation, but it then raises a question: Do you think the reeds would not have developed as favorably if the box had been played hard during this period?

 

A question for all the commercial makers on this board (Rich Morse, Frank Edgley, Bob Tedrow, others?): Do you specifically instruct owners of you new instruments to avoid playing the reeds hard and/or to vary the level of stress on the reeds during a break-in period? Do you have an information sheet or the equivalent for new owners that conveys these suggestions?

[Bill Keaveney]

Another thought - Harmonica manufacturers DO recommend that not too much force be used on the reeds during early playing - especially the lower reeds! Free reeds are free reeds - perhaps they know something WE should know?

[goran rahm]

Rich, don't you think that your observation on the 'Morris Hohners' could be a bit biased? My immediate thought is that *any* vigorous playing style would be more apt to cause greater 'out of tune' effect (either done initially or later on) but I hardly believe this would be much related to the issue of 'breaking in' or not, except if so, very marginally.

According to much experience all new reeds change their behavior (and of then their tone..) during an initial playing phase. My guess is that this 'fact' has caused various degrees of belief in the 'breaking in' issue. It could also to a part be a strategic position by some makers to recommend customers to go gentle for a while in order not having to retune the instrument shortly after delivery. BECAUSE...after production (and initial tuning)..or after any retuning...there will always be some uneveness in tuning accuracy when the instrument has been played for a while. ( I guess any maker/repairer will confirm this...) In consequence some makers/repairers do advice their customers to get back for a fine tuning after some months of regular playing.

 

Dave and Rich, technically the matter of metallic stress tolerance seemingly is the clue and a lab test should not be too difficult to perform....comparing

1) the breaking point for momentary and continuous load for 'new' or 'used' reeds respectively

2) the pitch stability for the 'new' and 'used' reed

3) the tonal characteristics for the 'new' and 'used' reed

 

Guesses of mine:

- I don't believe 'breaking in' means that you protect the reed from momentary breach...rather the opposite

- I believe breach from continuous load increases with time of use

- I believe amplitude response decreases with use related to possible stress weakening of the metal

- I likewise believe pitch stability decreases with use (which could be 'one' explanation that instruments tone may seem to "mellow" with use)

- 'Something' does seem to happen with tone from regular and lasting playing. I believe one part of it is psychologic, I have wondered if the continuous 'gymnastics' of the reed could cause some change in the tonal spectrum. The experience from 'coming in from the cold' wintertime with any squeezebox adds to this thought.

 

Goran

[Sharron]

The reeds definitely do change in sound.

I have been playing my new morse ceili for a total of 5 weeks now and it has changed in that time.

Last night before heading off to the session I checked the tuning on my fiddle so had the tuner to hand.

The notes more frequently used have a different sound to the lesser used ones although they are all still bang on in tune. They are smoother sounding on the regularly played ones and the more or less unplayed (middle row a+b r/hside for eg.) are more *edgy*. Because I play irish music the middle r/h row doesn't fall quite as easily under the fingers as it is runs for f#/g+a/b on the bottom row that I use mostly. Hence I noticed quite a change when I was checking the tuning on it. I just got to check these things.

A very pleasant surprise.

In fact people kept commenting on how well it sounded.

 

I did as suggested and treat it as I do with a new car. Nothing too long and loud and varied playing. Lots of it mind, I am accused of never putting it down.

 

Sharron

[goran rahm]

Sharron:"The notes more frequently used have a different sound to the lesser used ones although they are all still bang on in tune."

 

Goran:Hmm..."bang on in tune"...is a slightly dubious expression. All free reeds have an 'amplitude/pressure gradient' related pitch (instability). Consequently squeezeboxes are NEVER 'in tune' except possibly at one specific pressure!

Low frequency reeds vary more than high frequency ones with pressure. The variation may be +/- 25 cent or so!! but in the midrange usually less than 5-10 cent, still often much audible.

The sad result of this is that IF you wish your instrument to be ideally in tune you better decide whether you wish to play soft OR loud ALL THE TIME...:-)

 

So...what you ought to compare (now it is too late...:-) ) is like I said earlier the pitch stability for new and used reeds (better be the identical ones..)

 

Now..if you are dead sure the tone is different at the same pressure and this being a sort of 'mean' pressure ...at which hopefully the tuning was done...we are approaching the true riddle. WHY is the tone different in that case?

 

My hypothesis is that

1) the amplitude/pressure response is better for the 'new' reed leading to a virtually 'brighter' perception of the tone

2) the 'gymnastics' of the reed metal may cause the bending and vibration pattern to stabilize in a way different from the 'fresh' pattern and that this may result in reduction of parts of the high frequency tone spectrum.

 

The common experience is that the tone gets 'mellower/nicer' with playing and acoustically this can hardly be related to anything else than either

- loss of high frequencies or

- enhancement of the fundamental frequency or

- enhancement of some harmonic partial

 

There is hardly any reason to expect the later two alternatives to occur....

 

Goran

[Sharron]

Whoa there Goran.

 

Please read my post again.

 

I am not interested in the why's and wherefor's and I haven't mentioned being either.

 

I use an electronic tuner designed for idiots like me who just want to be *in tune* without the rest of the hassle.

 

Bang on in tune is what I said and according to the tuner that is exactly what I get however it is pushed/pulled or hard/soft bellows action. It does not alter the tuning according to the tuner. That is all I am concerned about.

 

The lesser used buttons are not *broken* in to the same degree and that is why I think the sound has altered. It is only 5 weeks old and *all* the notes had exactly the same type of sound as each other when I bought it. It is only *now* that I find the differences coming to light between *used* and *less well used*.

 

This will later not be the case as those *less used* buttons will catch up later with more playing.

 

All I want is to be able to play a nice sounding instrument that is in *tune* no matter what pressure it is played with, and I am getting just that.

 

Frequencies and stuff such as that mean nothing at all to me and I have enough to get on with without worrying about it.

 

I am just stating what I think about *breaking in reeds* that they do change, I thought that it would be an interesting observation just as to how quickly considering my little box is only 5 weeks old.

 

Sharron

[Richard Morse]

Do you specifically instruct owners of you new instruments to avoid playing the reeds hard and/or to vary the level of stress on the reeds during a break-in period? Do you have an information sheet or the equivalent for new owners that conveys these suggestions?

We do sell our Morse concertinas with a "care instruction" sheet though it doesn't get into the "breaking in" advisement. Thanks for bringing this up! I'll revise our insert promptly.

 

Rich, don't you think that your observation on the 'Morris Hohners' could be a bit biased?

How so?

 

My immediate thought is that *any* vigorous playing style would be more apt to cause greater 'out of tune' effect (either done initially or later on) but I hardly believe this would be much related to the issue of 'breaking in' or not, except if so, very marginally.

I think you misread my post.... I had said hard playing, meaning "excessive pressure". The "strong" component of vigorous is appropriate though the "energetic" component of it may be misleading. My observation is that hard initial playing resulted in poor performance (muffly sound, limited dynamic range, poor starting propensity). I did not say anything about it causing reeds to become out of tune.

 

According to much experience all new reeds change their behavior (and of then their tone..) during an initial playing phase. My guess is that this 'fact' has caused various degrees of belief in the 'breaking in' issue. It could also to a part be a strategic position by some makers to recommend customers to go gentle for a while in order not having to retune the instrument shortly after delivery. BECAUSE...after production (and initial tuning)..or after any retuning...there will always be some uneveness in tuning accuracy when the instrument has been played for a while. ( I guess any maker/repairer will confirm this...) In consequence some makers/repairers do advice their customers to get back for a fine tuning after some months of regular playing.

It's my experience that reeds do not go out of tune. I know that that is a HUGE statement to make, but I feel moved to make things clearer. Let me expound upon this. I am speaking only of the reeds operated within certain tolerances, and without considerations of all the other parts of the instrument. I am not considering rust, subsequent work (tuning) of the reeds, the valves, reedpan, etc. In my experience, a reed will retain the pitch it was fabricated at.

 

As a part of the operational considerations, I also acknowledge that a reed will be sound slightly higher in pitch when played at a very low volume and somewhat lower in ptich as it approaches it's maximum limit. This propensity and characteristic is inherent given the reed assembly's design and construction. This degree of pitch variance remains constant and is in keeping with my observation that "reeds do not go out of tune". I consider this variance to be a integral part of the operation as it changes in proportion to altering the pitch of the reed.

 

Reed-only considerations which can cause the pitch to change include stress hardening, fatigue, and physical damage - which all can happen given enough use abuse and poor care. Under normal operational conditions these things will occur to such a small degree to be virtually undetectable. Well, maybe not for the physical damage part as a poor tuner can wreck a reed in an instant.

 

Going a little further, there are many things that affect the pitch of a reed. The most significant culprit "causing" the reed to change pitch is the valve. New instruments (and newly revalved ones) are tuned to pitch. Over the course of several weeks of playing the valves will take a "set" which some people consider to be "unevenness in tuning accuracy". In reality, this has naught to do with tuning, but with the valves becoming more supple as the area where the valve flexes from (where it is glued down) becomes more abruptly defined. The result is that this allows a slightly less restrictive air path and will result in a reed's pitch to drop slightly - depending on the method of valve attachment, quality of valve, and size of reed and valve - by 1 to 4 (very rarely more) cents.

 

The advice to have a box retuned to compensate for broken in valves is a good one as once retuned to the new "set", a box will stay in tune for many years. Going "gentle" in breaking in a new box (or retuning) just puts off the valve "set" slightly longer than being a vigorous and constant player would.

 

This issue of pitch is distinct from the issue of new reed change of behavior and change of tone.

 

The change of behavior is most noticeable in the way reeds start. If the tip clearance isn't JUST right, a reed will be sluggish to start under certain pressures. Overstressing a reed seems to result in the reed at rest being closer to the plate than ideal. This generally makes a reed difficult to start at moderate to high initial pressures though it will respond reasonably at lower initial pressures.

 

Overstressing reeds also seems to limit the latitude of their swing (how far it pedulates) which is a dynamic issue. I don't know the reason or mechanics behind this observation. Maybe someone with the time/money/knowledge/skill/etc. could ascertain why.

 

Change in tone is seems to have wide acceptance as a real event. I wonder if part of that has to do with some sort of molecular realignment of the reed though I suspect that most of that tone change has to do with the rest of the box becoming more concordant with repeated vibrational patterns.

[goran rahm]

Rich, I think I basically agree with what you are saying below. I expressed myself a bit too shortly and unprecise (including in the whole the specific effects you sort out as being responsible for 'changes'...)

Consequently we may have possible effects on

1) 'tuning' of the reed accomplished by filing

2) 'tuning' of the reed accomplished while setting the height and curvature of the reed

3) 'tuning' related to valve function

4) 'tone' by change of metal mechanic characteristics related to stress effects

5) 'tone' by change of metal structure

6) 'tone' by influence from other box structures

7)...?

 

Do I get you right?

Some questions remain:

 

 

QUOTE (goran rahm wrote:)

Rich, don't you think that your observation on the 'Morris Hohners' could be a bit biased?

 

Rich:"How so?"

 

Goran now: I mean, could you know that all of them had the same distribution of of 'non breaking in' and immediate 'hard' playing of their instruments? Did you try to identify and sort out what different 'damage' could have been done to the tone in respective instruments? or did you merely in general notice that they did not sound so well? Have you not noticed the same with any other instruments from the same batch? or turning it around..maybe the Morris players came back with their instruments because they had noticed something gone wrong and you/we do not know the comparable status of other similar instruments you have sold?

 

 

QUOTE (goran rahm wrote:)

My immediate thought is that *any* vigorous playing style would be more apt to cause greater 'out of tune' effect (either done initially or later on) but I hardly believe this would be much related to the issue of 'breaking in' or not, except if so, very marginally.

 

Rich:"I think you misread my post.... I had said hard playing, meaning "excessive pressure". The "strong" component of vigorous is appropriate though the "energetic" component of it may be misleading. My observation is that hard initial playing resulted in poor performance (muffly sound, limited dynamic range, poor starting propensity). I did not say anything about it causing reeds to become out of tune."

 

Goran now:Ok I see, but what I wonder is how you/we can know that it was the *hard initial playing* that may have caused the change and not the *total amount of hard playing*??

The point being to separate the possible specific importance of a 'breaking-in routine'.....which is the real issue here

 

Rich:"It's my experience that reeds do not go out of tune. I know that that is a HUGE statement to make, but I feel moved to make things clearer. Let me expound upon this. I am speaking only of the reeds operated within certain tolerances, and without considerations of all the other parts of the instrument. I am not considering rust, subsequent work (tuning) of the reeds, the valves, reedpan, etc. In my experience, a reed will retain the pitch it was fabricated at."

 

Goran:Well I agree so far that those other factors probably are the the greater villains when 'a whole instrument' is regarded and found 'out of tune'. But my experince from instruments not having been touched for long periods does say that reeds do go out of tune, some more, some less and some again seem to have stayed in tune for the same long period.

It has happened that some of them regain (part of) the (assumed) original pitch after playing without retuning. This procedure I have tried a few times but I can't say that these instruments have been very uniformly or systematically played. Nevertheless the impression remains.

 

Rich:"As a part of the operational considerations, I also acknowledge that a reed will be sound slightly higher in pitch when played at a very low volume and somewhat lower in ptich as it approaches it's maximum limit."

 

Goran: This is not generally correct. It varies with reed frequency and profile type. Without going into details this is one of the functions that J Cottingham has studied and I guess you have studied his paper(s) on it....

 

Rich:"This propensity and characteristic is inherent given the reed assembly's design and construction."

 

Goran:Well, that seems to be in line with what I said above

 

Rich:"This degree of pitch variance remains constant and is in keeping with my observation that "reeds do not go out of tune". I consider this variance to be a integral part of the operation as it changes in proportion to altering the pitch of the reed."

 

Goran: I have come across to me unexplained irregularities in the pitch variance. One identifiable factor seems to be the accuracy of reed alignment which may change by 'hard handling'. Agree?

 

Rich:"Reed-only considerations which can cause the pitch to change include stress hardening, fatigue, and physical damage - which all can happen given enough use abuse and poor care."

 

Goran: Agree...so we could accept that varying degrees of such stress ought to be a possible explanation of tonal change...or?

 

Rich:" Under normal operational conditions these things will occur to such a small degree to be virtually undetectable."

 

Goran:What is normal?? I think we can't avoid having a 'statistic normal distribution' and for some part causing detectable changes

 

Rich:"Going a little further, there are many things that affect the pitch of a reed. The most significant culprit "causing" the reed to change pitch is the valve...................... The result is that this allows a slightly less restrictive air path and will result in a reed's pitch to drop slightly - depending on the method of valve attachment, quality of valve, and size of reed and valve - by 1 to 4 (very rarely more) cents."

 

Goran:Hm...again.... the effect is not (always) the same for high frequency and low frequency reeds.....

 

Rich:"The advice to have a box retuned to compensate for broken in valves is a good one as once retuned to the new "set", a box will stay in tune for many years. Going "gentle" in breaking in a new box (or retuning) just puts off the valve "set" slightly longer than being a vigorous and constant player would."

 

Goran:Hm I wonder..most valves open so much even at low pressure I doubt that gentleness will do much difference here although I agree that the effect is present.

 

Rich:"This issue of pitch is distinct from the issue of new reed change of behavior and change of tone. "

 

Goran: Yes, I agree,accroding to the initial 'list' of factors

 

Rich:"Overstressing reeds also seems to limit the latitude of their swing (how far it pedulates) which is a dynamic issue. I don't know the reason or mechanics behind this observation."

 

Goran:I don't see what you mean really. I can't share the observation either...Could it be due to some local damage being present? in that case I can understand such an effect. What else is "overstressing" in this context?

 

Rich:"Change in tone is seems to have wide acceptance as a real event. I wonder if part of that has to do with some sort of molecular realignment of the reed ...."

 

Goran:The 'common' knowledge about the basis of the tonal spectrum to me seems to speak against such speculations...

 

Rich:"....though I suspect that most of that tone change has to do with the rest of the box becoming more concordant with repeated vibrational patterns."

 

Goran:an interesting speculation also but I really find it hard to accept any theoretically understandable basis for it and the experimentation on accordions by Gotthard Richter seem to exclude such box effects....(the vibrations of the box can hardly be expected to cause audible musical sound..but it may be a field to investigate further.....)

 

 

Goran Rahm

[Richard Morse]

Consequently we may have possible effects on... tuning... tone....

I think it would be clearer to say that we are considering variations in reed pitch, behavior, and tone. "Tuning" is only one of many things which affects those three characteristics.

 

Rich, don't you think that your observation on the 'Morris Hohners' could be a bit biased? I mean, could you know that all of them had the same distribution of of 'non breaking in' and immediate 'hard' playing of their instruments? Did you try to identify and sort out what different 'damage' could have been done to the tone in respective instruments? or did you merely in general notice that they did not sound so well? Have you not noticed the same with any other instruments from the same batch? or turning it around..maybe the Morris players came back with their instruments because they had noticed something gone wrong and you/we do not know the comparable status of other similar instruments you have sold?

 

We've sold scores of identical boxes over many years - most to whom we know what type of music they play. Our customers complain readily to us when their box doesn't sound/play as well as they think it should - and particularly after comparing theirs to other people's identical make/model/key boxes. Invariably, these folk are Morris musicians who complain that "no matter how hard they press it, their boxes are still slow to speak and not as loud or responsive as other similar boxes". They agree that they've played their new box "full bore" from day one, and within a couple months had noticeably depreciated.

 

I can readily tell the difference in response when I play these damaged boxes. Generally speaking, the wonky treble reeds are mostly in the G row, mid range. The higher reeds usually sound fine. The bass reeds usually are terrible. Oh, and often there is one treble reed that cracks (the same reed in each box!)

 

Morris players who don't overstress their boxes don't complain about wonky reeds. Musicians playing other genres and gigs don't complain much either. Seems that there's enough "comparable" going on here to make some generalizations.

 

but what I wonder is how you/we can know that it was the *hard initial playing* that may have caused the change and not the *total amount of hard playing*?? The point being to separate the possible specific importance of a 'breaking-in routine'.....which is the real issue here

 

The timing of the reed degradation seems to be the defining aspect. We notice this within the first few month's use of a new box. We don't get much complaint (actually, only VERY rarely) of boxes becoming wonky reeded when they are beyond a few months old. Ergo: some playing factor degraded boxes when they were first new. The boxes that are most affected belong to Morris musicians who profess to playing as loud as they could - constantly.

 

But my experince from instruments not having been touched for long periods does say that reeds do go out of tune, some more, some less and some again seem to have stayed in tune for the same long period.

 

Possibly because the valves have stiffened up which will cause the pitch to change. The valves can vary greatly in dimensions, quality, cut, and securance with could easily account for the differences.

 

It has happened that some of them regain (part of) the (assumed) original pitch after playing without retuning. This procedure I have tried a few times but I can't say that these instruments have been very uniformly or systematically played. Nevertheless the impression remains.

 

Again - consider the valves. When limbered up to become closer to working the way they did when newer, the pitch of the reed with be closer to what it was then too.

 

Rich:"As a part of the operational considerations, I also acknowledge that a reed will be sound slightly higher in pitch when played at a very low volume and somewhat lower in ptich as it approaches it's maximum limit."

Goran: This is not generally correct. It varies with reed frequency and profile type. Without going into details this is one of the functions that J Cottingham has studied and I guess you have studied his paper(s) on it....

 

"Frequency and profile type" IS included in my considerations and holds true. J Cottinghams papers show the same results I'm observing. What is not "generally correct" about this observation?

 

I have come across to me unexplained irregularities in the pitch variance. One identifiable factor seems to be the accuracy of reed alignment which may change by 'hard handling'. Agree?

 

Yes, reed alignment can also affect pitch, though I'm pretty hard pressed to remember a situation where alignment has been changed by "hard handling". If by which you mean excessively stressful playing -no. If you mean intentional reed or plate movement by the act of tuning or resetting a reed - yes.

 

Rich:"Overstressing reeds also seems to limit the latitude of their swing (how far it pedulates) which is a dynamic issue.

 

Goran:I don't see what you mean really. I can't share the observation either...Could it be due to some local damage being present? in that case I can understand such an effect. What else is "overstressing" in this context?

 

Getting into work hardening will make the reed stiffer - which will make it not swing as far (in its oscillation or vibration) for the same air pressure. Metal fatigue will make the reed weaker, which results in the reed not being able to pendulate in its normal latitude.

 

Rich:"Change in tone is seems to have wide acceptance as a real event. I wonder if part of that has to do with some sort of molecular realignment of the reed ...."

Goran:The 'common' knowledge about the basis of the tonal spectrum to me seems to speak against such speculations...

 

What is that common knowledge?

 

Rich:"....though I suspect that most of that tone change has to do with the rest of the box becoming more concordant with repeated vibrational patterns."

 

Goran:an interesting speculation also but I really find it hard to accept any theoretically understandable basis for it

 

I'm just going from my own observations and things I've heard repeatedly from violinists, hammered dulcimer players, pianists, flautists, etc..... In the case of violins, they will improve in response and tone by playing. If you put "played in" strings on a new fiddle and new strings on a "played in" fiddle, the latter will have appreciably better response and tone. Same thing with a clarinet's reed/body, guitar's strings/body....

 

Gotthard Richter seem to exclude such box effects....

 

I'm not familiar with Gotthard Richter's work. What did he do which is relevant here?

[goran rahm]

QUOTE (goran rahm)

Consequently we may have possible effects on... tuning... tone....

 

Rich:"I think it would be clearer to say that we are considering variations in reed pitch, behavior, and tone. "Tuning" is only one of many things which affects those three characteristics."

 

Goran:Allright with me but isn't there a risk that the use of "pitch" sometimes will be confusing since it is so commonly used like 'pitch' = 'standard pitch' (i.e. the choosen normal tuning level ...a=435,440...).and "tuning" *mostly* is used for the procedure to adjust the 'original' sound source to a choosen 'standard pitch'. With free reeds the filing procedure, with stringed instruments the adjustment of string tension ...and so on....?? Do most people associate "tuning" also with setting the reed tip and adjustment of the valves? I don't know...I don't speak english...:-)

 

 

QUOTE

Rich, don't you think that your observation on the 'Morris Hohners' could be a bit biased....

 

Rich:" I can readily tell the difference in response when I play these damaged boxes. Generally speaking, the wonky treble reeds are mostly in the G row, mid range. The higher reeds usually sound fine. The bass reeds usually are terrible. Oh, and often there is one treble reed that cracks (the same reed in each box!)"

 

Goran: And what is the defect with the reeds? "Slow to speak and not as loud"...

"Slow to speak" use to be matter of tip setting...does that fix it? Have you compared them directly with 'new' similar reeds?

"Not as loud" ...you mentioned the valves yourself. Does revalving fix it?

Have the reeds become more flexible/pressure?? What you say later on about metal fatigue speaks against that, or?

 

Rich:"Morris players who don't overstress their boxes don't complain about wonky reeds. Musicians playing other genres and gigs don't complain much either. Seems that there's enough "comparable" going on here to make some generalizations."

 

Goran: I don't question your observation but the interpretation may be questionable as long as we don't have a more specific comparable situation:

 

QUOTE

(Goran before:)but what I wonder is how you/we can know that it was the *hard initial playing* that may have caused the change and not the *total amount of hard playing*?? The point being to separate the possible specific importance of a 'breaking-in routine'.....which is the real issue here

 

Rich:"The timing of the reed degradation seems to be the defining aspect. We notice this within the first few month's use of a new box. We don't get much complaint (actually, only VERY rarely) of boxes becoming wonky reeded when they are beyond a few months old. Ergo: some playing factor degraded boxes when they were first new. The boxes that are most affected belong to Morris musicians who profess to playing as loud as they could - constantly."

 

Goran:Hmm..to me it seems as we stay in the dark since we don't have a comparable bunch of Morris players who have been able to control themselves enough (and being "gentle") from the start....:-)

 

QUOTE

(Goran before)But my experince from instruments not having been touched for long periods does say that reeds do go out of tune, some more, some less and some again seem to have stayed in tune for the same long period.

 

Rich:"Possibly because the valves have stiffened up which will cause the pitch to change. The valves can vary greatly in dimensions, quality, cut, and securance with could easily account for the differences."

 

Goran now: Nope...since I have revalved the instruments first( after taken notations of the complete tuning levels inside and outside the box)...taken notations after revalving inside and outside...and again after some period of playing

 

QUOTE

It has happened that some of them regain (part of) the (assumed) original pitch after playing without retuning. This procedure I have tried a few times but I can't say that these instruments have been very uniformly or systematically played. Nevertheless the impression remains.

 

Rich:"Again - consider the valves. When limbered up to become closer to working the way they did when newer, the pitch of the reed with be closer to what it was then too."

 

Goran:Done....see above

 

QUOTE

Rich:"As a part of the operational considerations, I also acknowledge that a reed will be sound slightly higher in pitch when played at a very low volume and somewhat lower in ptich as it approaches it's maximum limit."

 

QUOTE

Goran: This is not generally correct. It varies with reed frequency and profile type. Without going into details this is one of the functions that J Cottingham has studied and I guess you have studied his paper(s) on it....

 

Rich:"Frequency and profile type" IS included in my considerations and holds true.Cottinghams papers show the same results I'm observing. What is not "generally correct" about this observation?

 

Goran:Particularly 'high pitch reeds' (with a profile thinner at the tip than the base)

may raise their pitch at low volume instead of lowering it

 

QUOTE

Rich:"Overstressing reeds also seems to limit the latitude of their swing (how far it pedulates) which is a dynamic issue.

 

QUOTE

Goran:I don't see what you mean really. I can't share the observation either...Could it be due to some local damage being present? in that case I can understand such an effect. What else is "overstressing" in this context?

 

Rich:Getting into work hardening will make the reed stiffer - which will make it not swing as far (in its oscillation or vibration) for the same air pressure. Metal fatigue will make the reed weaker, which results in the reed not being able to pendulate in its normal latitude.

 

Goran:Hmm I wonder what happens here really...Do you *know* that the above is a reality??? If 'hardening' has made the reed 'stiffer' the elasticity has changed and this ought to change (raise) the acoustic frequency ="pitch" as well...?!?

Do you mean that 'hardening' and 'fatigue' compensate each other and the reed stays in pitch? Isn't it so that 'work' is a 'softening' factor rather?

 

QUOTE

Rich:"Change in tone is seems to have wide acceptance as a real event. I wonder if part of that has to do with some sort of molecular realignment of the reed ...."

 

QUOTE

Goran:The 'common' knowledge about the basis of the tonal spectrum to me seems to speak against such speculations...

 

Rich:"What is that common knowledge?"

 

Goran:Sorry, I take that back. Two mistakes...I misinterpreted "realignment" believing it meant 'linearity' and temporarily looked at the tonal spectrum in relation to the macromechanic circumstances. On the contrary..I agree...me too I 'speculate' along the same line...guessing that the molecular structure may change in a way that the bending/swinging pattern of the reed is altered and thus the consequent representation of overtones is changed...and 'tone' different...

 

QUOTE

Rich:"....though I suspect that most of that tone change has to do with the rest of the box becoming more concordant with repeated vibrational patterns."

 

QUOTE

Goran:an interesting speculation also but I really find it hard to accept any theoretically understandable basis for it

 

Rich:I'm just going from my own observations and things I've heard repeatedly from violinists, hammered dulcimer players, pianists, flautists, etc..... In the case of violins, they will improve in response and tone by playing. If you put "played in" strings on a new fiddle and new strings on a "played in" fiddle, the latter will have appreciably better response and tone. Same thing with a clarinet's reed/body, guitar's strings/body....

 

Goran: This analogy I'm afraid is risky since all these instruments have a 'true resonator' which can be expected to influence on the 'tone'..Squeezeboxes don't have a resonator of this kind but the theoretical speculation that the 'box' nevertheless may cause resonance effects is quite common.

 

QUOTE

Gotthard Richter seem to exclude such box effects....

 

Rich:I'm not familiar with Gotthard Richter's work. What did he do which is relevant here?

 

Goran:Lab studies in order to objectivize acoustical effects from the vibrations in the 'box' -materials and structures - and they speak strongly against (m)any assumed acoustical effects regarding this. 'Acquired' acoustical influence of the box like you are speculating about truly is a fascinating idea but seems even further strange....but allright....I can't deny the possibility.....

If we could get to know more about the matter I think it could be possible to make some systematic studies on the reeds firstly. Measuring stress/fatigue effects on acoustical amplitude/pressure function, mechanical amplitude, breaking point, onset function, tone spectrum....

 

Goran

[Richard Morse]

sn't there a risk that the use of "pitch" sometimes will be confusing since it is so commonly used like 'pitch' = 'standard pitch'

Musical "pitch" can mean a certain frequency or a particular set of frequencies with a certain frequency basis. As we are talking about individual reeds' date=' individual pitch seems apparent. We might be more precise and speak of [b']frequency[/b] rather than pitch but the term "frequency" is more associated with numbers and not music.

 

Do most people associate "tuning" also with setting the reed tip and adjustment of the valves?

I don't think so. I've always heard the procedure of setting the reed tip clearance to be "voicing", and sometimes "setting". Voicing a reed deals with how quickly a reed starts and doesn't have anything to do with tuning (adjusting the pitch or frequency of the reed). Valves are for efficiency and not tuning, though improperly installed can affect the pitch.

 

And what is the defect with the reeds? "Slow to speak and not as loud"...

That is what I have said' date=' though "slow to speak and not as loud" is NOT a defect of the reeds but a [i']result[/i] of reed damage. I'm using the word "wonky" as a quick way to summarize this characterization. For a non-native English speaker you're doing quite well and I've been trying to "read though" obvious miscommunications. I recommend Dicationary.com for clarification.

 

"Slow to speak" use to be matter of tip setting...does that fix it? Have you compared them directly with 'new' similar reeds?

Voicing does make the reeds speak more quickly, and yes, I have compared them directly with new similar reeds.

 

"Not as loud" ...you mentioned the valves yourself. Does

revalving fix it?

No.

 

Have the reeds become more flexible/pressure?? What you say later

on about metal fatigue speaks against that, or?

I don't have the tools or time to measure such things. Such is only conjectural from my standpoint.

 

Morris players who don't overstress their boxes don't complain about wonky reeds. Musicians playing other genres and gigs don't complain much either. Seems that there's enough "comparable" going on here to make some generalizations.

I don't question your observation but the interpretation may be questionable as long as we don't have a more specific comparable situation.... Hmm..to me it seems as we stay in the dark since we don't have a comparable bunch of Morris players who have been able to control themselves enough (and being "gentle") from the start....

I've said that I've had years of experiences with scores of identical boxes played in defined circumstances including with gentle Morris players. What more do you want?

 

But my experince from instruments not having been

touched for long periods does say that reeds do go out of tune.

Possibly because the valves have stiffened up which will cause the pitch to change.

Nope...since I have revalved the instruments

first

Then you have mislead me by saying that you "hadn't touched the instruments". The basis for discussion is completely changed. Still' date=' my response that the valves are responsible for pitch change in the first few subsequent weeks is appropriate: as they break in, some reed's pitches will change.

 

It has happened that some of them regain (part of)

the (assumed) original pitch after playing without retuning.

QUOTE (Rich responded:)

Again - consider the valves. The valves are still relevant. Without knowing what you did and when, I cannot determine what is going on. It sounds like you noted the pitches of the reeds prior to revalving an old, unused box, revalved it and noted the pitches again, and played it in for awhile and noted the pitches again. The only thing that has changed are the valves, and they will change - and those changes will alter the pitch of the reeds. Some will sound more in and some more out of pitch.   As a part of the operational considerations' date=' I also acknowledge that a reed will be sound slightly higher in pitch when played at a very low volume and somewhat lower in pitch as it approaches it's maximum limit. This is not generally correct....Particularly 'high pitch reeds' may raise their pitch at low volume instead of lowering it Seems like you have misread my words?   Gotthard Richter....Lab studies in order to objectivize acoustical effects from the vibrations in the 'box' -materials and structures.... If we could get to know more about the matter I think it could be possible to make some systematic studies on the reeds firstly. Measuring stress/fatigue effects on acoustical amplitude/pressure function' date=' mechanical amplitude, breaking point, onset function, tone spectrum.... [/quote'] That sounds wonderful to me. Funding is a major problem however.

[goran rahm]

Rich:" I've always heard the procedure of setting the reed tip clearance to be "voicing", and sometimes "setting". Voicing a reed deals with how quickly a reed starts and doesn't have anything to do with tuning (adjusting the pitch or frequency of the reed). Valves are for efficiency and not tuning, though improperly installed can affect the pitch."

 

Goran:I asked because you mentioned retuning for compensating change by 'broken-in' valves. The *tuning* still means the reed filing procedure....Now...

by 'setting'/ 'voicing' the frequency may change also...so in reverse we could literally speak about "tuning" (= frequency adjustment) also when performing the setting/voicing but we don't, do we? *Tuning* remains *only* the reed filing job....

agree?

 

QUOTE

Goran:"Slow to speak" use to be matter of tip setting...does that fix it? Have you compared them directly with 'new' similar reeds?

 

Rich:Voicing does make the reeds speak more quickly, and yes, I have compared them directly with new similar reeds.

 

Goran now:....and the result?? (re)-voicing of the "wonky" reeds did that help to

regain the 'onset'=making them NOT slow to speak? or did they remain being slower than the new ones?

 

QUOTE

Goran:Have the reeds become more flexible/pressure?? What you say later

on about metal fatigue speaks against that, or?

 

Rich:I don't have the tools or time to measure such things. Such is only conjectural from my standpoint.

 

Goran:Without measuring we do remain guessing or at least subjective don't we...and to understand and compare our observations we have to objectivize them some way....so how do you evaluate the "wonky" *reeds* being less loud? (not the *instrument*) The loudness is a function (among other things) of the reed's resistance towards pressure (since maximum sound amplitude here is depending on the maximal pressure gradient the reed is capable to create). So I guess that

IF the reed *itself* has become less loud its spring condition must have changed and the 'damage' mostly encountered is a local part breach of the reed is it not?

This could be easily understood from 'hard handling' but what about energetic playing subliminal to such breaking damages?? do you mean that your observations support such an assumption or what do you think about it all??

 

QUOTE (Rich wrote)

Morris players who don't overstress their boxes don't complain about wonky reeds. Musicians playing other genres and gigs don't complain much either. Seems that there's enough "comparable" going on here to make some generalizations.

QUOTE (Goran responded)

I don't question your observation but the interpretation may be questionable as long as we don't have a more specific comparable situation.... Hmm..to me it seems as we stay in the dark since we don't have a comparable bunch of Morris players who have been able to control themselves enough (and being "gentle") from the start....

 

Rich again:I've said that I've had years of experiences with scores of identical boxes played in defined circumstances including with gentle Morris players. What more do you want?

 

Goran now:I still mean the 'true history' of these instruments can not be entirely

reflected. To really know IF there are differences related to the possible or absent 'breaking in' procedure this has to be done in a contemporary and controlled manner and by *measurement* not subjective observation. Again...I am not saying you are wrong about it but it remains vague to me and most important...*what* possibly happens physically we have no idea unless it is

studied lab-wise.

 

QUOTE (Gorin wrote:)

But my experince from instruments not having been

touched for long periods does say that reeds do go out of tune.

QUOTE (Rich responded:)

Possibly because the valves have stiffened up which will cause the pitch to change.

QUOTE (Gorin responded:)

Nope...since I have revalved the instruments

first

 

Rich:Then you have mislead me by saying that you "hadn't touched the instruments". The basis for discussion is completely changed. Still, my response that the valves are responsible for pitch change in the first few subsequent weeks is appropriate: as they break in, some reed's pitches will change.

 

Goran:I am picking nits maybe but according to our agreement(?) before the *reed's* pitch should still be *unchanged* ...the modification by different valve stiffness however causes a change in resulting *instrument* pitch....

Back to my experience on pitch change with inactive instruments.Maybe there is mutual misunderstanding....The instruments have been "untouched" (=inactive) for years....I had restored them mechanically and revalved them after initially measuring response and frequency of all reeds.Measuring them again. Playing for some time. Measuring again. ( Later on tuning the instruments....)

 

QUOTE (Gorin wrote:)

It has happened that some of them regain (part of)

the (assumed) original pitch after playing without retuning.

QUOTE (Rich

responded:)

Again - consider the valves.

 

Rich:The valves are still relevant. Without knowing what you did and when, I cannot determine what is going on. It sounds like you noted the pitches of the reeds prior to revalving an old, unused box, revalved it and noted the pitches again, and played it in for awhile and noted the pitches again. The only thing that has changed are the valves, and they will change - and those changes will alter the pitch of the reeds. Some will sound more in and some more out of pitch.

 

Goran: Nope....I mentioned longer ago that I measured both *outside* AND *inside* the instrument. The test bench measurement of course is completely un-influenced by valve action....

 

QUOTE (Rich wrote:)

As a part of the operational considerations, I also acknowledge that a reed will be sound slightly higher in pitch when played at a very low volume and somewhat lower in pitch as it approaches it's maximum limit.

QUOTE (Gorin responded:)

This is not generally correct....Particularly 'high pitch reeds' may raise their pitch at low volume instead of lowering it

 

Rich:Seems like you have misread my words?

 

Goran: No, but I misprinted my own...:-) they may raise their pitch at *high* volume!

 

Goran