Advice, please.

[rlgph]

23 hours ago, Don Taylor said:

 

23 hours ago, Don Taylor said:

Just to add that the Wicki layout is also diffferent from the Hayden system in that the LHS buttons are reflected. 

 

If it is hard to source a Hayden system then Wicki systems are almost unobtainium.  The Concertina Connection (Wim Wakker) will make you one if you ask them nicely (with money up front).

 

 

 

It is no more difficult, nor is the deposit any higher, to get a CC Peacock with mirrored left side than the more common configuration.  I understand that the B.B. Beaumont can also be ordered with a mirrored left side, though I don’t know that for sure, nor what the deposit is.

           ron

 

[rlgph]

18 hours ago, Reedwarbler said:

I would agree that the difficulty in finding a decent (not a budget model) Hayden Concertina might force me to concentrate on the other systems, the Crane in particular.

 

The Concertina Connection quoted me a waiting time of 48 months for a Hayden. At my time of life that’s a bit too long to wait.

 

Surely that’s the waiting time for a Wakker Hayden, not a CC Peacock.  The wait time for one of those is about 6 weeks, and used ones show up fairly frequently.

Edited July 22, 2018 by rlgph
Correct misspelling

[Reedwarbler]

56 minutes ago, rlgph said:

Surely that’s the waiting time for a Wakker Hayden, not a CC Peacock.  The wait time for one of those is about 6 weeks, and used ones show up fairly frequently.

 

Absolutely correct. Apologies for any ambiguity

[Dana Johnson]

On 7/21/2018 at 5:55 AM, inventor said:

It is a pure myth that the Hayden slope is awkward: it is there for a very good reason, which I have exhaustively written about in this website in the past.

For the right hand I use the little finger also for accidentals, and chromatic decorations where it is probably no better or worse than on a Crane. Playing consecutive notes a fourth apart are never a problem on the Hayden as they fall on buttons that are diagonally to the left in the next row rather than immediately above as on the Crane.

On the left hand I commonly use the left little finger when playing an Um-Pah accompaniment (the sort of thing an Accordion Stradella bass is set up for); to play the Um in the lowest octave available;  together with the same note an octave higher, on the ring finger. Then a higher chord for the Pah.

The offset given by the slope facilitates this nicely.

Please don't think that I am in any way knocking the Crane as I think that it is a very good system in many ways. If one had come into my hands fifty years ago, rather than an A flat Jeffries Duet, the Hayden duet might never have been invented ! 

 

Inventor.

  

I played a 63 Button Hayden I converted from a McCann for years.  I copied Inventor’s slope and found it worked very well.  Mind you, everyone’s hands are different, some dramatically so.  I have had to adjust handrest distance and angle, as well as adding thumb extension paddles to my anglos for players with low set thumbs, or short little fingers.   The Jeffries Anglo pitch and spacing is different from the Wheatstone.  You quickly get used to what you play.   The Hayden ain’t broke.  No reason to “fix” it.

[inventor]

Thank-you Dana.  

Inventor.

[RAc]

sorry for the noise, must try a Hayden asap

Edited July 24, 2018 by RAc

[inventor]

I have absolutely no difficulty playing BOTH fourths and fifths with one finger. On my larger (68 button) Hayden duet I can play every fourth AND every fifth interval that falls within the compass of the instrument, with only one finger. The rows of buttons are closer together (9mm), than the usual column concertina distance (11mm).  On this instrument I have large (6mm) flat top buttons, the centers of which are 12mm diagonally away from the buttons that are both a fourth or a fifth higher and lower. Most standard column concertinas have smaller buttons (usually 4mm); so all in all the span is about the same.

I am sorry to be so pedantic; but I did an awful lot of work to arrive at the optimum sizes distances and angles, for my type of concertina.

 

Inventor.   

[Noel Ways]

1 hour ago, inventor said:

I have absolutely no difficulty playing BOTH fourths and fifths with one finger.

 

My first hayden had a slant, and playing fifths on the left side with one finger was standard

 

My current hayden has a key layout that is parallel to the handrest, and playing fifths with

one finger is no longer an option (how I wish it still was) on the left side.  Playing forths with one finger works fine.

 

Having played both configurations for years, I **think** I have come to the conclusion that

for this and other reasons, the slant is superior.

[Don Taylor]

So is there a true Hayden on the market today? 

 

The specified size buttons, the slant handrest, the specified button spacing and the left and right hands not being mirrors of each other?

 

 

[David Barnert]

10 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

So is there a true Hayden on the market today? 

 

The specified size buttons, the slant handrest, the specified button spacing and the left and right hands not being mirrors of each other?

 

I’m pretty sure the Elise (limited as it is, and I note you didn’t include real concertina reeds in your list of requirements) follows the specs. And does “on the market” exclude waiting lists? If not, then you can certainly order one from Wakker and have it in a few years. They’re also listed on Steve Dickinson’s Wheatstone page, but there the waiting list is somewhat longer (I’ve been waiting since 1989).

 

BTW, FWIW, I’ve been playing the slanted Hayden for 30+ years and am more comfortable with that than the unslanted version. And I don’t often do the “little finger on the octave bass” trick.

[Don Taylor]

The Elise has small EC sized buttons.

[David Barnert]

2 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

The Elise has small EC sized buttons.

 

So do both my Wheatstone and Bastari Haydens.

[W3DW]

I read somewhere on this forum that the Elise follows Mr. Hayden's carefully selected slant, spacing and button size, and I began on this instrument feeling that this would be the best place to start.

Why not walk in the footsteps of giants? 

When I switched to the Beaumont - no slant, and larger buttons - I barely felt the bump. We're all different, but I wouldn't regard the construction differences among Haydens to be a major stumbling block if you later choose another configuration. 

And while expressing personal opinions, I feel that Mr. Hayden's keyboard concept is brilliant. Talented musicians play well in all systems, but the predictable and functional layout of this system is a joy under my fingers. Thank you! 

[Don Taylor]

From "A chat with Brian Hayden": http://www.concertina.com/williams/hayden-chat/index.htm

 

"For one Hayden system made by Robin Scard of Dipper Concertinas, I managed to persuade him to use bigger buttons, so that has 6mm buttons. I did try to persuade him to go a bit bigger, but that was a high as he was prepared to go. Colin had made quarter inch (6.5 mm) buttons for anglos, but did not recommend that on a Duet with so many buttons. It has worked out extremely well, even when you are playing only three parts. With four or even five parts, then you have to have it, and because of the fourths and fifths, that tips the balance between being able to play four parts and five parts. "

 

See also "The Hayden Concertina Keyboard System": http://www.concertina.com/hayden-duet/Hayden-The-Hayden-Concertina-Keyboard-System.pdf which does not specify the button diameters so maybe Brian dropped that from the specification?

[inventor]

Regarding button size:

I can only recommend, but obviously cannot control what  makers and manufactures actually produce. As pointed out even for my personal instrument, 6mm was as big as Colin was willing to go.

Button Box do do large (but not flat top) buttons; and Concertina Connection do do flat top (but normal size) buttons. Makers are set up with tooling to produce buttons in quantity, and duet concertinas are just a small sideline to their main production of English and/or Anglo concertinas. 

Steve Dickenson has tooling to make the small hemispherical metal top buttons, inherited from the original Wheatstone factory. I don't personally like these: however when he offered to make me a complete batch of 10; I naturally jumped at the chance.

This led me to more experimentation on the size and shape of the buttons.

With the Elise that is the standard button size for all the concertinas that Concertina Connection have made in China.

 

Inventor.

 

       

[Noel Ways]

After Alex Holden completed his first prototype of the Hayden (and had 

received Brian's stamp of approval); I have been very interested to know

what direction Alex was planning to go with the Hayden, if indeed he

goes into production mode.  I bet someone in this conversation knows?!?!

 

What is Alex thinking?

 

Might he be willing to preserve the slant as well as provide a parallel option?

[Little John]

6 hours ago, Noel Ways said:

After Alex Holden completed his first prototype of the Hayden (and had 

received Brian's stamp of approval); I have been very interested to know

what direction Alex was planning to go with the Hayden, if indeed he

goes into production mode.  I bet someone in this conversation knows?!?!

 

What is Alex thinking?

 

Might he be willing to preserve the slant as well as provide a parallel option?

 

I'm sure Alex would be happy to consider any proposal for a Hayden, parallel or slanted. To the best of my knowledge his order book consists of Anglos and Cranes at the moment.

[alex_holden]

10 hours ago, Noel Ways said:

After Alex Holden completed his first prototype of the Hayden (and had 

received Brian's stamp of approval); I have been very interested to know

what direction Alex was planning to go with the Hayden, if indeed he

goes into production mode.  I bet someone in this conversation knows?!?!

 

What is Alex thinking?

 

Might he be willing to preserve the slant as well as provide a parallel option?

 

As John says, I don't have a catalogue of standard designs but I'm willing to take commissions. My limiting factor at the moment is I can't easily build instruments wider than about 6 1/4", which restricts the number of buttons I can fit in to about 45 for a duet.