Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
rlgph

Mirrored Hayden Duets

Recommended Posts

 

I wonder whether a mirrored layout actually reinforces the instinctive tendency for one hand to mirror the other; whereas a non-mirrored layout might encourage the player to learn independent movement from the outset, which will make playing more complex music easier once they progress.

This is an interesting question -- one that i would like to explore further by trying to learn to play a simple melody on the right side with accompaniment (something beyond chord sequences) on the left side. As this is not something i've ever done, could someone who does this regularly summarize your approach to learning such a task? Do you have a suggestion for a simple melody and counter melody for me to try?

 

 

Define "simple accompaniment." Even something apparently "trivial" as an Ohhm-Pa can become quite challenging (both technically and musically) once you add things like inversions, groovy phrases (off-beat stresses, for example), intermediate leading notes, rhythms changes or chord sustitutions on the left.

 

A few mohths ago there was a very intriguing thread here on parallel melodies on 3rd, 6th and 10th intervals (should be easy to locate) which imho is a good starting point if woven into a "simple" (oohm-pa) accompaniment. If you're looking for complete couter point arrangements or something the like - good luck; I'm looking forward to retirement to even think about tackling something as elaborate (though sometimes it takes only few notes to enhance a bass line significantly).

 

Re the original question - as a Crane player, I may be able to contribute one more food item for thought - every once in a while I like to turn my Crane around for practice for one of several reasons (eg give my left hand some exercise to keep up with the right or record an elaborate left-hand-only accompaniment for an ensemble arrangement). If my Crane was mirrored, it'd be a no no as I would have to learn BOTH hands completly new. I don't see any point whatsoever in mirrored layouts, but I like to play mind games such as this: If there had been no such thing as a concertina before the days of the internet but modern technology would have made it possible for everybody to configure his/her individual layout at no extra cost and publish/compare the results - which layout would eventually be the most popular and prevail?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

Why not start with a scale in 10ths (3rd + octave)? Play a G scale with the left hand while playing an ascending scale starting on B (but staying with the notes of a G scale) with the right.

 

If you want a real tune, you might try Xotis Romanes...

Thanks for the suggestios. I'll see what i can do. Edited by rlgph

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I don't see any point whatsoever in mirrored layouts

 

I'm not surprised, since you'e an experienced player who learned on a non-mirrored instrument -- not a beginner. From my perspective, speeding the learning process for beginners, IF IT DOESN'T NEGATIVELY EFFECT THE ABILITY TO ACHIEVE MORE ADVANCED SKILLS, would be a significant point. In my case, i know it sped up my learning to play melodies and octave-based accompaniment with my left hand. Whether it retards my ability to play more involved accompaniment is an open question. Edited by rlgph

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I don't see any point whatsoever in mirrored layouts

I'm not surprised, since you'e an experienced player who learned on a non-mirrored instrument -- not a beginner.

 

 

Actually, that's not true (though flattering). I picked up the concertina about 6 years ago after a long time unsuccessful struggle with the guitar. I discovered that although the guitar also requires coordination of two somewhat independent activities of the two hands, learning duet concertina was more or less starting from scratch.

 

For the first two years or so, I didn't even consider attempting anything but single voiced melody playing. I then (like you) added very simple dual hand activity - meaning parallel octave playing - and then went at very elementary Ooohm-Pa accompaniments (which would regularly and predictably throw me off every time I had to start thinking about what I was doing). It was only after perceived hundred million repetitions of the same two bar phrase that things started to remotely sound like music. Every added step (doing the same thing under metronome control, adding more chords, changing chord positions, adding bass runs etc) would cause pretty much the same collapse of the piece under my fingers, regardless of how well I had internalized the previous step. I'm still for most practical purposes a dilettant, trying to scrape out as much time as possible for my music (which isn't a whole lot) and only (in my perception) beginning to produce something remotely similar to music.

 

I'm not complaining, that's the way music works. You have to work very hard and diligently at every single step, constantly leaving your comfort zone to step forward. But that's the very issue I'd agree with hcjones on tentatively: "Cheap" successes *may* make it more compelling to stay within your comfort zone.

 

That said, it's also important to emphasize that every individual is different and takes his or her individuality to the music learning process. So if you feel that a mirrored layout would have taken you easier to whereever you want to go - fine, and it's too bad (no sarcasm here whatsoever) that this opportunity didn't arise.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

Actually, that's not true (though flattering). I picked up the concertina about 6 years ago after a long time unsuccessful struggle with the guitar. I discovered that although the guitar also requires coordination of two somewhat independent activities of the two hands, learning duet concertina . . . .

 

Thanks for your comments. You, and many others on this forum, obviously have a more serious attitude toward music than i, perhaps because it's just a retirement activity for me. I dabble at guitar, singing/songwriting, concertina, bass guitar, (a hyrid stringed instrument that i call a) chimera, and was formerly in a bagpipe band for 15~20 years. I am mediocre at all, in part because i didn't start any of them except the pipes until i retired, and in part because i haven't the patience to spend enough time with any one instrument to become proficient. Nevertheless, i enjoy the time i spend playing, both alone and jamming with others.

 

So, i'm not a real musician, which is why i'm satisfied playing melodies with or without octave-based accompaniment. Spending hours and hours learning a small handful of "complete" (and in my case still marginally proficient) pieces doesn't interest me at all. However, i think that there are lot of people like me who could enjoy many of the benefits of playing music. I am in favor of any ways of making it easier and more interesting for them to do so, whether or not they rise to the level of real musicians.

Edited by rlgph

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Nevertheless, i enjoy the time i spend playing, both alone and jamming with others.

 

And this is surely all that matters!

 

It seems to me that the subject of this thread is largely academic. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't consider themselves "real musicians" who nevertheless get on just fine with non-mirrored instruments, e.g. the anglo concertina; or even worse the melodeon where the hands do really different things. Plenty of "non-musicians" manage to strum a guitar where the hands have completely different tasks. I know all our brains are wired a little differently, but this need for mirroring doesn't seem to be very strong or human beings couldn't play all these other instruments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If there had been no such thing as a concertina before the days of the internet but modern technology would have made it possible for everybody to configure his/her individual layout at no extra cost and publish/compare the results - which layout would eventually be the most popular and prevail?

 

This question really moves away from the OP intent and, in part, has been addressed many times over in different ways but here RAc poses it very succinctly......new thread perhaps: widened perhaps to include hand/finger rests, air release, size, key combos (for anglo) .
It's a subject I find endlessly interesting...
Robin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×