Utterly Frustrated With Colin Dipper

[geoffwright]

Do we want concertina repairers/makers to stop in business?

 

Yes, of course we do - they are the concertina enthusiasts lifeline. They will only stop in business by carrying out the maximum number of jobs, scheduled efficiently. All concertina makers/repairers want to see more concertinas being played - that is why they do what they do.

 

If there are quick repairs to do, the owner is back playing quicker, if there are new ones to make, it is more efficient to make a number of new ones at once with jigs etc set up (woodwork jigs not 6/8 ones, before the wags jump in). Therein lies the time scheduling problem.

 

It is a fact of life that if you want an immediate concertina, you should buy one, not order one. It is only worth waiting to have one made if you want a specific box making that is not readily available, so it is usually only experienced players who specify their own layout and experienced players usually have more than one box on the go.

 

p.s. I play a Jeffries reconditioned by Dipper and it is my pride and joy. (Everyone else thinks it is too loud)

[shipcmo]

Just musing;

I believe that all concertina makers have at one time or another constructed “special” instruments. But most of their output was in “production” models. To be frank, there is not much profit in special instruments. I suspect that the specials were for special customers, as advertising; or the design piqued the interest of the maker.

That said, it is my perception that the current concertina makers are craftsmen making a modest living building new instruments, and also repairing older ones. Instrument repair usually results in immediate income, whereas instrument manufacture income generally is only from the finished product. Thus efficiency of production is an important consideration for the maker. Therefore setting up jigs for a standard model, and producing a “run” of that model will provide the best income.

Just as once (pre Neil Wayne) one could find a Jeffries at a “reasonable” price, the chance of a maker producing a really unique instrument, just because a customer wanted one, is probably a thing of the past.

Cheers

[shipcmo]

Chris,

Since, as far as I know, Colin does not, and never has, produced a catalog of his models, it might be of interest to this community if one were published. Could we persuade you to garner such information?

Also, I would like to encourage the Owners of Dippers to post their models here.

Cheerily, man, cheerily!

[Roger Digby]

Funnily enough, the subject of one–off instruments came up in a conversation I had with Geoff Crabb a few days ago. He says that Crabb would make then, but when one was collected it was made very clear that the firm would not take it back for resale. They are as much, or more, effort to make as a standard model, but once the owner has no more use for them they are of virtually no second-hand value at all. Mike Acott currently has a Duet with the buttons arranged like a piano keyboard (probably the same one I saw in Liverpool Rd 30 years ago). Interesting, but who wants it?

To address the main theme of this thread, I feel that we should never undervalue the few dedicated and hardworking master craftsmen of both sexes who create and maintain the highest quality instruments. There are few of them and they are sorely hard-pressed. Like Chris, I have benefited from a ‘drop everything - I’ll do it in 24 hours’ attitude when I have had a problem large or small immediately before a gig or recording session. This small band of craftsmen has my undying gratitude and respect.

Roger

[Chris Timson]

That said, it is my perception that the current concertina makers are craftsmen making a modest living building new instruments, and also repairing older ones.  Instrument repair usually results in immediate income, whereas instrument manufacture income generally is only from the finished product.

Colin has told me that they make little profit from making new concertinas. Most of their income comes from repair work. They make concertinas for the love of the instrument, and because they want to have instruments of the highest quality out there at a reasonable price. (Also I suspect that building a good concertina is building a piece of the future, since a good concertina will last centuries). I do believe them when they say this.

Chris,

  Since, as far as I know, Colin does not, and never has, produced a catalog of his models, it might be of interest to this community if one were published.  Could we persuade you to garner such information?

 

Actually he has, though the one I have is pretty old (950 pounds for a Cotswold model, anyone?), but by strange mischance our scanner went on the blink today. When we've repaired/replaced it I'll scan it and put PDFs up for everyone.

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

Chris,

  Since, as far as I know, Colin does not, and never has, produced a catalog of his models, it might be of interest to this community if one were published.  Could we persuade you to garner such information?

Actually he has, though the one I have is pretty old (950 pounds for a Cotswold model, anyone?), but by strange mischance our scanner went on the blink today. When we've repaired/replaced it I'll scan it and put PDFs up for everyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please include a notice that it is not current, and the prices may not be the only detail that's out of date. I was tempted to say "unless Colin tells you that all the other information is still valid," but with an expected waiting period of years, there's no guarantee it won't change during that period, anyway. And "standard" models are still far from being "off the shelf".

[David Barnert]

Sorry to revive an unpleasant thread that's been dormant for a week. I was away last week, and am only now getting caught up with concertina.net.

 

I thought this might be an appropriate place to point out (as many of you are aware) that I have had a 55-key Hayden concertina on order from Steve Dickinson (Wheatstone & Co.) since 1989. I paid a large deposit in 1992 and my last communication estimated a delivery date of "Fall 1992." Another member of this forum ordered one at the same time and, I'm told, has paid the entire price in hopes that this would speed things up. It didn't.

 

So oddball's frustration with Mr. Dipper (however justified or not) is neither unique to oddball nor to Mr. Dipper.

[Madagascar]

Hi

 

Just to say that Dipper Concertinas is a small business, hardly an amazon.co.uk next day delivery style operation! Demand however is very high for the instruments but order date is sometimes not applicable, e.g. someone who is performing and needs their instrument quickly might be sorted out more quickly than people who have ordered before them.

 

Overall it is Colin and Rosalie's personal decision about who gets their instrument made/repaired next and therefore politeness goes a long way, and not phoning through the Archers!

 

One tip to speed through your order may be to bribe their daughter by paying off her student loan

[malcolm clapp]

and not phoning through the Archers

 

Dum de dum de dum de da

Dum de dum de da da....

 

Is that still going??? I gave it away when they killed off Walter Gabriel....

 

Mind you, if any one rings me about concertina repairs while I'm watching The Bill....

 

Of course I'm just watching to see if a concertina ever makes an appearance in the story line....

 

Malcolm

Edited February 11, 2005 by malcolm clapp

[Alan Day]

It is still going Malcolm because I too was told not to phone Will Duke while it was on.

Al

Nr Gatwick Airport .

Half way between London and Brighton and on the way to America if your flying

Edited February 11, 2005 by Alan Day

[David Barnert]

...I too was told not to phone Will Duke while it was on.

Whattsamatter? Don't they have TiVo in the UK?

[Samantha]

...I too was told not to phone Will Duke while it was on.

Whattsamatter? Don't they have TiVo in the UK?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I, too, am trying to forget about what I've ordered from the Dippers. I was doing very well til this thread started up!

 

PS The Archers is a radio soap opera.

Edited February 11, 2005 by Samantha

[stuart estell]

PS The Archers is a radio soap opera.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

...And part of the very fabric of life itself...

[Jeff H]

I have heard from a reliable source that if you are "in the trade" you can expect an instrument from Dipper in 1-3 years , not 5-10.

 

I have no way of confirming this.. but seems odd.

 

I am in the business of making stuff.. depending on the item 1 month to 2 years...

I never take deposits and I never make anything I can not sell to anyone else, yet everything is custom one of a kind one at a time.

In 15 years I have never missed a deadline. I don't care if you are a garbage collector or a king.. price is the same and nothing bumps you up on the list.

 

As the phrase goes.. if you don't want one of mine.. go down the street and buy the other one.

 

This all points out to me that this bolsters the used market and repair trade. as well as creating an opportunity for others to work your butt off for minimal wages

 

Jeff

[Chris Timson]

I have heard from a reliable source that if you are "in the trade" you can expect an instrument from Dipper in 1-3 years ,  not 5-10.

Um. What precisely do you mean by "In the trade"?

 

I would say that I know Colin and Rosalie as well as anyone on this list, and I know of no such distinction for any group of people. I do know for a fact that the reason dealers tend not to use the Dippers for repair and refurbishment is because they don't get priority treatment.

 

Chris

[Stephen Chambers]

I have heard from a reliable source that if you are "in the trade" you can expect an instrument from Dipper in 1-3 years ,  not 5-10.

I have no way of confirming this.. but seems odd.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As someone who is "in the trade" I would very much doubt the reliability of your source, it would make no financial sense to give preference to discount customers ahead of retail ones.

 

... to work your butt off for minimal wages

To me that sounds like a pretty good definition of what Colin and Rosalie (and other makers) have been doing for all these years.

 

Anyone skilled and dedicated enough to make a concertina would be much better off if they got "a proper job" that paid them accordingly.

 

We should be very grateful that they are prepared to make concertinas at all, and treat them with the greatest respect, not be "slagging them off" in this thread.

[Paul Groff]

Stephen,

 

While I was writing my overlong response you made my point very concisely with your last sentence! Alan and others have also said much of what I wanted to add. However, let me add my comments to the weight of opinion, FWTW.

 

Those who find this too much may scroll through.

 

 

Chris,

 

Although I don't know the Dippers as well as you and I live far away, my shop has done business with them and I can confirm what you wrote.

 

They have sometimes been willing to undertake jobs such as new bellows, action, and custom wood and metal work for concertinas I sell through my shop (mostly to my anglo students). I expect that these jobs will sit in their queue for months or years until it is most convenient and efficient for them to do the work. It is always well worth the wait, even though this adds to the high cost of maintaining inventory for a small business.

 

Fortunately, I was able to arrange years ago for a series of instruments to be made for the shop. These do not appear to be coming to me earlier than "projected," in fact sometimes years later. I am not at all surprised to encounter a delay in the manufacture of such a complicated machine, requiring so many different skills, tools, and materials that are sometimes unavailable in suitable quality. Like the repairs, the new instruments have always been more than worth the wait. My only difficulties are financing these instruments (which are not "specials" perhaps, but a unique model for my shop) on my shoestring budget, and encouraging patience in MY customers.

 

There are a number of professional manufacturers and repairers of fine concertinas, and also many amateurs and semi-professionals doing this work (some of whom post to this site). But from around the world amateur players, pros, and shops beat a path to the Dippers' door and the pressure on this family business must be very great. They go to great lengths to maintain high standards of quality work and did so even when their instruments sold for a few hundred pounds, a very small fraction of what those same instruments are worth today. Needless to say when those instruments change hands, their owners (some of whom I have heard complaining about the Dippers' service) often make much more profit on them (having in some cases merely stored, or even having abused, these concertinas for years) than did the makers.

 

I am sure it must be very difficult to strike a balance among the desperate pleas of hundreds (thousands?) worldwide for immediate attention while maximizing the integrity of the craftsmanship. Does Oddball expect that impatient (or perhaps even angry, rude, or unreasonable) requests will encourage his work to be given priority?

 

Jeff, I highly respect you and your work. I think also your business model may be better attuned to what many educated consumers have come to expect, especially in the U. S. I hope the market continues to reward you very well for your efforts (both in the workshop and in production management). But I think it is possible that not everyone can operate their business the same way, and do the work the way they need to do it, and keep finding it worth their while. The world of concertina professionals is a small one of unique personalities, and, like the members of your family, each should be understood and appreciated as an individual. It can be a valuable education for some modern musicians to learn (through experiences that might sometimes include frustration) something about the traditional independence of a fine craftsman following his own lights.

 

I would like to see all the makers, restorers, dealers, teachers, and professional players of the concertina receive much more support than they get. Almost without exception they do it IN SPITE of the financial "rewards," and could much better support their families by applying their talents to almost any other work. But they love the concertina and so have devoted themselves to professions that, directly or indirectly, form a foundation for all players. To many, it is part of its charm that the concertina is so rare (especially here in the US) and that almost all its modern players are amateurs, but their dominance of the concertina buying market, of the music sessions, and the internet sites should not lead them to conclude that they can solely dictate what is right and wrong for the instrument. I look to the few very best players, best makers, most experienced repairmen, and dedicated historians for the wisest guidance. They have very good reasons for their opinions and policies, as I increasingly understand.

 

Trust me that the Dippers, I, and every concertina professional I know want to aid and encourage players at all levels, and to bring new players to the instrument. But there is more to that than satisfying the most superficial, immediate, short-term wishes of these “customers.”

 

"The customer is always right" is a cliche that holds much truth. But it is not the whole or only truth. It does not apply in the education business, where the customer must often be encouraged tactfully (or even disruptively) to discard his or her current beliefs and gain a new point of view along with the new knowledge. And we in the concertina business (like many contributors to this site) often find ourselves struggling to convince newcomers to the concertina not to repeat the many mistakes - based on misunderstandings - we have made or seen. I think someone said "you can't expect a custom instrument maker to offer the convenience of W*lm*rt." Well actually you can demand this if you wish, but what a shame (literally) if every potential customer ("patron?") did. I fear that might cause some of our dedicated makers to give up their economically irrational mission, allowing the businesses who are comfortable with the W*lm*rt model to take over completely. I know that the instrument and its serious players would be poorly served if that happened.

 

Maybe the false sense of intimacy between the internet user and his or her keyboard encourages one-sided, unfair, self-absorbed rants that ignore the complexities of the challenges others face.

 

I did mean that last comment to apply to the originator of this thread, but of course the reader would be entitled to the opinion that it applies to this post also.

 

Paul

Edited February 12, 2005 by Paul Groff

[Frank Edgley]

I must say that I sympathise with the starter of the discussion. Ten years does seem to be quite a wait. There was a time when I would have regaled you with humourous anecdotes about my wait. HOWEVER, now the shoe is on the other foot. I am now a maker of concertinas. To date, everyone who has e-mailed me or phoned me regarding the completion date of their concertina has been patient and polite. Nevertheless, I feel the pressure. I don't want to disappoint anyone. Believe me, if there was a way I could make my concertinas faster, I would. After all, it makes sense. The more instruments I turn out, the more money that comes in to the shop. But there's one little problem---rushing and taking shortcuts reduces quality. I won't do that. I have to do the best job I can with every instrument that goes out to a customer. I must play it and ask myself, "Is this the best possible?" I know Colin and Rosalie have the same ethics. They will only send out the best quality instrument they can produce, and in their case it is a "Stradivarius". Perhaps, if they charged what their instruments are worth, they would receive fewer orders, the wait would be less, and chances are, they would be compensated appropriately, while still keeping busy. Noone wants to pay more for an instrument, but when you consider the price of other top-of-the-line instruments, a concertina is a bargain. You can pay much, much more for a high quality violin, or guitar, for example than for the best concertina. If there are problems with the delivery of a Dipper it is more to due with pricing than anything else. Yes, and maybe they could pay a bit more attention to how long people have been on the list. Some of the problem is also due to their attempt to be more efficient. You know, all the anglos at one time, all the standard Englishes at one time, etc. etc. Before you know it, years have gone by by the time those "one off" instruments are seen to. They do require some non-productive time while extra buttons are figured out, or non-standard note configurations are laid out. If you have to keep the money coming in, these are a problem. Let's say they get $6000 for an instrument and make 15 in a year. That's $90,000. Let's say half is for parts and overhead, making it $45000, for two people for one year. That's not much for two very skilled crafts persons.