Playing In B Flat?

[Susanne]

Hi all,

 

For those who don't know me, I play a C/G anglo concertina, Jeffries layout. I'm somewhere near the lower end of the intermediate level. A friend of mine wants me to play on a CD she is going to record. She sings most things in keys that aren't particularly compatible with mandolins or C/G concertinas, so eventually I decided to stick with the mandolin (using a capo!!! what a shame!) but I thought that it would be possible to play those keys (because of the accidental row) if you're just competent enough with the instrument, but I didn't even find all the notes of the scale..

 

So you anglo pros, is it possible to play in B flat on the C/G anglo? I never found the E flat note.

What about C#? (I haven't tried that yet but I'm not very hopeful)

 

[Patrick McMahon]

No problem : If you can't find e flat, use D#

 

http://www.concertina.info/tina.faq/images/finger3.htm

[Stephen Chambers]

No problem : If you can't find e flat, use D#

 

Unless your concertina is tuned to meantone (like a Jeffries in original tuning would be), and then they're half a semitone apart...

Edited November 22, 2016 by Stephen Chambers

[Lakeman]

Hi Susanne ...you need a duet ? Please visit my new website ( and perhaps even buy my debut solo concertina CD) www.geofflakeman.co.uk It includes a tune in Bb "The Road Together " written by irish button box virtuoso Mairtin O'Connor..it'll give you an idea of the notes/chord progression in this key

[nicx66]

With a wheatstone layout you can play Bb chords and Bb scales, however its much easier on a C#/G# box, sometimes referred to as an Eb concertina

[wayman]

Bb on a 30-key C/G Jeffries layout is totally do-able. You have to think a lot about air-management as your I, IV, and V chords are all on the draw so you need to make great use of the air button to squeeze the bellows shut as you're playing the passing scale tones -- it's a completely different style of anglo playing than what you're used to in 'more balanced keys'. But the Jeffries layout is extremely well-suited to Bb.

 

I'd even say the Jeffries layout is better-suited than the Wheatstone for playing in keys one, two, or three flats away from the 'home key'. Unexpectedly, given that it's even further around the circle of fifths, Bb is one of the very best keys on the G/D Jeffries layout ... assuming your instrument is equal temperament! And thus even Eb can be one of your best-friend keys on a C/G Jeffries.

[Roger Hare]

Bb on a 30-key C/G Jeffries layout is totally do-able. You have to think a lot about air-management as your I, IV, and V chords are all on the draw so you need to make great use of the air button to squeeze the bellows shut as you're playing the passing scale tones -- it's a completely different style of anglo playing than what you're used to in 'more balanced keys'. But the Jeffries layout is extremely well-suited to Bb.

 

I'd even say the Jeffries layout is better-suited than the Wheatstone for playing in keys one, two, or three flats away from the 'home key'. Unexpectedly, given that it's even further around the circle of fifths, Bb is one of the very best keys on the G/D Jeffries layout ... assuming your instrument is equal temperament! And thus even Eb can be one of your best-friend keys on a C/G Jeffries.

 

I'd never really thought much about this as I actually have a 30-button Bb/F 'tina as well

as a 30-button C/G, and I'm not yet (IMO) 'advanced' enough to worry about this sort of

stuff. However...

 

I don't know if the layout is the same as a Jeffries, but today, intrigued by this discussion,

I worked out how to play the scale of Bb on my 30-button C/G Jones - two scales in fact,

one an octave higher than the other - one entirely on the left hand, one almost entirely

on the right hand.

 

For some reason, even though both scales only require two excursions to the accidental

row (the Bb and Eb) I find the fingering easier on the right hand side than on the left.

 

Interesting - this opens up a whole can or worms for me:

 

Should I learn to play tunes in Bb on both the C/G and Bb/F concertinas? Why? What do

the experts do?

 

Expanding the discussion, I interpret playing in keys one, two, or three flats away from the

'home key' as meaning F, Bb and Eb respectively, when talking about a 'home key' of C. Is

that correct?

 

Finally, I assume that if I play the notes of the Bb scale, but start and finish on C, I am then

playing the C Dorian scale, etc...

 

Thank you.

 

Roger

Edited November 21, 2016 by lachenal74693

[Stephen Chambers]

Should I learn to play tunes in Bb on both the C/G and Bb/F concertinas? Why? What do

the experts do?

 

Those experts who have one would play in Bb on an Ab/Eb - it's what they were intended for, and why the Salvation Army played them...

[Dana Johnson]

There is no time like the present to learn to play in some of the less common keys. They are not difficult, just different. On the Jeff, the c#/d#-Eb is the third button from the index finger end of the left accidental row and second from the index finger side of the right accidental row. Keep in mind that in some of these keys, using some alternate buttons from the duplicates like A,G, and D will make fingering much easier, the middle G/A on the left G Row in particular do you don't need to jump with the first finger when playing A to Bb.

Practice the scales so your fingers get used to the patterns and your ears get used to the notes.

One of the benefits of these keys is that they can offer cord colors you don't have available in G,D, or C. ( and relative minors ). Sometimes they take a little exploration to find, but are well worth the effort. It makes sense to have a concertina that is most at home in the keys you commonly play in, but it really doesn't make sense to spend thousands of dollars on a different concertina just so you don't have to learn some new keys. If, you love low pitch concertinas for their sound, that is a good reason to get one, or always play only with a set group who focus on a few specific keys. Otherwise it is time to learn how versatile your concertina really is.

Dana

[Dan Worrall]

South African Boer players commonly play in Bb on a CG concertina....even those with only 30 buttons. Here is a youtube of Faan Harris, one of the great ones, playing a tune he composed in memory of his son, killed by a drunk driver.

 

Hartseer (Heartache) Waltz is in Bb, played on his 30 button Lachenal metal-ended CG. The chords in Bb, as someone mentioned, are a bit different and more nuanced in Bb, and the notes more legato because most can be played in one direction. I think he picked this Bb key for this sad tune for just those reasons. I worked this tune out once, fingering and all, but gave it up eventually; my brain is just not wired that way (or maybe I am a bit lazy!). But many Boer players swear by this key.

 

By the way, I haven't checked the speed of this particular Youtube recording against my concertina. But he was playing in Bb on his CG. His CG was in the old high pitch, so regardless of which recording you have of him, you must adjust the tuning in something like the Amazing SlowDowner if you want to play along.

 

Dan

[Roger Hare]

There is no time like the present to learn to play in some of the less common keys. They are not

difficult, just different....Otherwise it is time to learn how versatile your concertina really is.

 

I think that answers my first two questions...

 

Those experts who have one would play in Bb on an Ab/Eb - it's what they were intended for, and why the Salvation Army played them...

 

And that answers my third question - I have an ex-SA Ab/Eb - oh dear, I was going to wash my hair today...

 

Thank you gentlemen.

 

Roger

Edited November 22, 2016 by lachenal74693

[gcoover]

Or, you could always resort to studio trickery by temporarily adjusting all the tracks up a whole tone and simply playing along and recording in C and then adjusting everything back down afterwards.

 

But then you'd miss the fun/challenge of discovering Bb notes and chords on your C/G.

 

 

Gary

[David Barnert]

 

There is no time like the present to learn to play in some of the less common keys. They are not

difficult, just different....Otherwise it is time to learn how versatile your concertina really is.

I think that answers my first two questions...

 

Those experts who have one would play in Bb on an Ab/Eb - it's what they were intended for, and why the Salvation Army played them...

And that answers my third question - I have an ex-SA Ab/Eb - oh dear, I was going to wash my hair today...

 

And to answer your last question:

 

Finally, I assume that if I play the notes of the Bb scale, but start and finish on C, I am then

playing the C Dorian scale, etc...

The answer is Yes. The notes of the C dorian scale are the same notes as the Bb major scale (just in a different order):

 

C D Eb F G A(nat) Bb C

 

[Edited for formatting]

Edited November 24, 2016 by David Barnert

[Bruce McCaskey]

Never tried to play in Bb on a C/G, I know where the necessary buttons are, just never had the need.

 

I have an Ab/Eb, and playing in Bb in that tuning would be the same finger positioning and fingering as playing in D on a C/G. Lovely instrument made by Frank Edgley and I quite like the pitch. Perhaps you can find someone to loan out an Ab/Eb?