Concertina Keys

[Patrick McMahon]

Just to add my own confusion to the mix, where is tenor in all this?

The usual English is described as a treble. I have a Lachenal with added deeper notes described as a tenor-treble.

Baritone is lower than tenor.

So if you are saying that a lower D/A would be baritone, that makes a standard D/A tenor? Is that right?

Which would make a standard C/G what? Tenor as well?

 

So what does that make a standard G/D ? Tenor or baritone?

And does the English treble cover the same range as the anglo 'tenor' ?

[darticus]

This is quote what the store owner said

No. it's AD. ,A#,B,C,C# D. 5 ths

So what is it?

Because its German made and triple reed does this change and of what we said about being AD? Ron

Edited November 18, 2016 by darticus

[Stephen Chambers]

How about "the store owner is wrong and doesn't have a clue about concertinas" - and it should correctly be described (the other way around) as D/A, like I've already said... (Have you tried asking him what the key is closest to the handle, or furthest from it? And "which is the higher key, and what is the lower one?")

 

Is it on the internet somewhere and, if so, can you give us a link?

 

Anglos exist in:

 

D/A

C#/G#

C/G

B/F#

Bb/F

A/E

Ab/Eb

G/D

F/C

 

And other odd keys sometimes turn up, but always that way around and with the rows a fifth apart.

 

Edited to add:

 

This is quote what the store owner said

No. it's AD. ,A#,B,C,C# D. 5 ths

 

For that matter, the store owner doesn't seem to have a clue about musical intervals either - "AD. ,A#,B,C,C# D" is a fourth, not a fifth. D to A, D#,E, F, F#, G, A is a Fifth!!!

 

(I didn't even understand WHAT they were saying when I first read it!)

Edited November 21, 2016 by Stephen Chambers

[BW77]

Anglos exist in:

 

D/A

C#/G#

C/G

B/F#

Bb/F

A/E

Ab/Eb

G/D

F/C

 

And other odd keys sometimes turn up, but always that way around and with the rows a fifth apart.

A curious question....since B/C and C/C# as far as I´ve heard are regarded as "typical Irish" tunings of two-row melodeons it might have been tempting to get a 20 key "Anglo" concertina in these keys also ( at least for *some* melodeon player going concertina...)

Have you seen or heard of something like that ?

[Tradewinds Ted]

Patrick,

To address your side question on where is the "tenor"?

 

- The "standard" 30 button C/G Anglo has a range from the C one octave below middle C, up to the G two octaves-and-a-fifth above middle C. I suppose you could call that a "treble" instrument , but most don't bother to label it as such.

- - The D/A Anglo would be one full tone higher than the C/G.

- The G/D Anglo range spans from the G one-octave-and-a-fourth below middle C, up to the D two-octaves-and-one-full-tone above middle C. This could be considered a "tenor" but, once again it is rarely labelled as such, because G/D is already enough to indicate that range.

- The "baritone" 30 button C/G Anglo is one full octave below that, so it spans from the C two octaves below middle C, up to the G one-octave-and-a-fifth above middle C.

- - A "baritone" D/A Anglo would be one full tone higher than the baritone C/G, and therefore a seventh below the standard C/G Anglo.

 

For the English, the range is smaller, because each button represents only a single note in both directions. That range is therefore dependent upon the number of buttons.

- For example a "treble" English with 37 buttons might range from the G a fourth below middle C, up to the D two-octaves-and-one-full-tone above middle C. The "baritone" English with 37 buttons would be shifted one octave lower.

This means the range is a full octave narrower than a 30 button Anglo.

- The "treble" English with 45 buttons might range from the C one octave below middle C, up to the D two octaves-and-one-full-tone above middle C. So the range is slightly extended, but still smaller than the Anglo. The "baritone" English with 45 buttons would be the same range, just shifted an octave lower.

An extended "tenor-treble" would presumably have a even more buttons, to allow the range to include more notes on the low end.

 

So an English generally has a smaller range than an Anglo, and a higher button count is used to increase that range. Of course this system allows any note combination to be played at any time, in either direction, as long as you can reach that button combination with your fingers. Since these instruments aren't really in a specific key, labels such as "tenor", "tenor-treble","extended tenor", "baritone" are needed to indicate what range might be covered.

 

The Anglo on the other hand, already has ample range even with just 30 buttons, but some combinations and note sequences are restricted by the bellows direction, so when an instrument has a higher button count this generally adds reversals and accidentals, rather than an increase in range. (Even a 20 button Anglo has the same range as a 30 button Anglo, just not all the notes in some keys.) Since these instruments are made to favour specific keys, the range is pretty well defined by specifying the keys, so the range label is generally not applied, unless the instrument is shifted a full octave lower than standard and then the "baritone" label is used to indicate that.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Tradewinds Ted

[Stephen Chambers]

Because its German made and triple reed does this change and of what we said about being AD? Ron

 

I only just noticed the extra question you added whilst I was replying to you.

 

No, being German should make no difference to the layout, but if it's triple-reeded there is probably an additional low octave reed set in there - which might give you the deep A sound you seem to be looking for... (But I can't guarantee it!)

[Patrick McMahon]

Tradwinds Ted :

 

 

Thanks. Beautifully explained. It must be, as even I managed to get some of it !!

[lachenal74693]

 

an article by Wes Williams - http://www.concertina.net/ww_pitch.html- which

produces...Does this article still exist - I'd love to read it...

 

 

...A waybackmachine.org search for circa 2009 may find you a copy in the meantime.

 

Unfortunately not - I did find a concertina manual with 250 tunes in it though ...

 

Thank you.

 

Roger

Edited November 21, 2016 by lachenal74693

[Stephen Chambers]

A curious question....since B/C and C/C# as far as I´ve heard are regarded as "typical Irish" tunings of two-row melodeons it might have been tempting to get a 20 key "Anglo" concertina in these keys also ( at least for *some* melodeon player going concertina...)

Have you seen or heard of something like that ?

 

 

We've had a few discussions of it in the past, most recently in Anglo Concertina In B/c Tuning?, but I don't think people "got" what I was saying about normal concertina button alignment being wrong for chromatic system...

[Stephen Chambers]

Just to add my own confusion to the mix, where is tenor in all this?

 

Normally speaking, you'd never hear an Anglo described as a tenor, only by its key, unless it's an octave higher, or lower, than normal when it would be referred to by key + "piccolo" or "baritone" respectively.

 

The only place I've seen an Anglo described as a tenor is in old Wheatstone catalogues (like this one: Wheatstone Duet and Anglo Pricelist circa 1910 ) and I've come across them occasionally - in 7" size and lower than a G/D, but higher than a baritone...

[BW77]

 

A curious question....since B/C and C/C# as far as I´ve heard are regarded as "typical Irish" tunings of two-row melodeons it might have been tempting to get a 20 key "Anglo" concertina in these keys also ( at least for *some* melodeon player going concertina...)

Have you seen or heard of something like that ?

 

 

We've had a few discussions of it in the past, most recently in Anglo Concertina In B/c Tuning?, but I don't think people "got" what I was saying about normal concertina button alignment being wrong for chromatic system...

 

Thanks! Very interesting, I hadn't seen those old discussions on the subject. It is easy enough to "get" your suggested layouts in #15 and #16 of that topic. For single note Irish style it seems handy enough in theory at least and evidently some players have used it in practise. I didn't see your comment on button alignment being wrong however...did you mean that the button rows are not straight on the concertina as they are on the accordion?? Does that matter?..or was it about something else? Some objections against the idea mentioning disadvantages concerning harmonic playing are hardly relevant. A B/C concertina would be a melody instrument anyway and it is a very compact way getting a chromatic instrument. Chromatic harmonica players ought to feel at home also