darticus Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I have some CG concertinas. Where would a key of AD be? Is this higher or lower than a C? Where would a key of DG concertina be above C or very low below C? Thanks Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Acott Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I have an early brass reeded D/A 30 key anglo that is above the normal C/G range. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartEstell Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 A D/A that sounded a seventh lower than a C/G would, I expect, be referred to as a "D/A baritone" -- a D/A would normally be a tone higher than a C/G. G/D is a fifth lower than C/G. I had a steel-reeded 20-key D/A Lachenal, which was marvellously shouty. Keith Kendrick has a D/A 38-ish key Dipper which is a thing of absolute wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takayuki YAGI Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 a D/A would normally be a tone higher than a C/G. G/D is a fifth lower than C/G. Same here. I had a D/A German concertina that is one tone higher than normal C/G and have a G/D Lachenal that is lower than C/G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Coles Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 One ancient survey on this topic. Two revisions I should make are a couple of E/B concertinas of German origin and piccolo concertinas in a number of combinations. It seems virtually every possible key has been made at least once at some point. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BW77 Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 One ancient survey on this topic. Two revisions I should make are a couple of E/B concertinas of German origin and piccolo concertinas in a number of combinations. It seems virtually every possible key has been made at least once at some point. Ken This survey says concerning Ab/Eb that it is "less common" which of course may be correct generally speaking but among Salvation Army anglos particularly 30(32) key ones I believe Ab/Eb (in high pitch a=452,5) rather might be the "most common" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darticus Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 Is a AD two tones lower than CG or 6 tones higher than CG? Is seems like were saying the DG is one tone higher than CG. Do I have it right? Thanks Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartEstell Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Is a AD two tones lower than CG or 6 tones higher than CG? Is seems like were saying the DG is one tone higher than CG. Do I have it right? Thanks Ron I think your confusion is coming from the way you are referring to the keys of the box. Convention is to describe an anglo by the lowest key first -- so D/A rather than A/D. The second row of the two is a fifth higher. Therefore a D/A anglo is a tone higher than a C/G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hare Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 One ancient survey on this topic.... That survey, (which I used when trying to find out a little bit more about my 26-Button Jones A♭/E♭ Salvation Army instrument) also mentions an article by Wes Williams - http://www.concertina.net/ww_pitch.html- which produces the message The requested URL /ww_pitch.html was not found on this server. when I try to access it. Does this article still exist - I'd love to read it... Thank you. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darticus Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 Is a AD two tones lower than CG or 6 tones higher than CG? Is seems like were saying the DG is one tone higher than CG. Do I have it right? Thanks Ron I think your confusion is coming from the way you are referring to the keys of the box. Convention is to describe an anglo by the lowest key first -- so D/A rather than A/D. The second row of the two is a fifth higher. Therefore a D/A anglo is a tone higher than a C/G. The person selling it in the music store says its A D. Does this mean the A is the lowest D is higher? D is a fifth higher. Could this be correct? If so would A be lower than the CG? Thanks Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradewinds Ted Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 D would be only a fourth higher than A, while E would the fifth. Most likely the person in the store is more used to the convention with 2-row Melodeons/Accordions, which are made so that the higher row is only a fourth above, rather than a fifth higher like on the Anglo Concertina For the Melodeon A/D would be normal. So the concertina in question is probably actually D/A and would be one full tone higher than a C/G. If it was a seventh lower, you could expect it would be sold as a Baritone D/A and it would be more rare, and expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Coles Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 One ancient survey on this topic. Two revisions I should make are a couple of E/B concertinas of German origin and piccolo concertinas in a number of combinations. It seems virtually every possible key has been made at least once at some point. Ken This survey says concerning Ab/Eb that it is "less common" which of course may be correct generally speaking but among Salvation Army anglos particularly 30(32) key ones I believe Ab/Eb (in high pitch a=452,5) rather might be the "most common" Believe me, I'm aware of many shortcomings and revisions necessary to my old article. I guess this is one reason Paul shut down most of the old site - we weren't keeping up with maintenance. I was attempting to survey all the anglos out there, so that wouldn't of course correspond to the Salvation Army alone. Of course I am now also aware that G/D was quite rare in the old days but is easily number two among new instruments, I'd guess. One ancient survey on this topic.... That survey, (which I used when trying to find out a little bit more about my 26-Button Jones A♭/E♭ Salvation Army instrument) also mentions an article by Wes Williams - http://www.concertina.net/ww_pitch.html- which produces the message The requested URL /ww_pitch.html was not found on this server. when I try to access it. Does this article still exist - I'd love to read it... Thank you. Roger I expect it's still there, under a different archived name. I'd have to log into the server to find out what that is and I can't do that where I am right now. A long-standing ambition is to port a bunch of the old static articles (and not just my own) to here and resume posting the summer school list. I have Paul's permission, save for the old Buyer's Guide, which he said generated many email complaints to him because it was outdated. A waybackmachine.org search for circa 2009 may find you a copy in the meantime. Anyway, back to keys. Besides C/G I have an A/E and a C/G baritone. The former is lovely and my wife's favorite (a Lachenal), she plays it daily. The latter (a modern hybrid) really demands its own style of play, playing it like a regular C/G doesn't strike me as the way to go. What do others think? Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darticus Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 D would be only a fourth higher than A, while E would the fifth. Most likely the person in the store is more used to the convention with 2-row Melodeons/Accordions, which are made so that the higher row is only a fourth above, rather than a fifth higher like on the Anglo Concertina For the Melodeon A/D would be normal. So the concertina in question is probably actually D/A and would be one full tone higher than a C/G. If it was a seventh lower, you could expect it would be sold as a Baritone D/A and it would be more rare, and expensive. So if they are saying its a AD it wouldn't play the same as a CG if I played it the same. As you say it must be AE or it wouldn't play correct when played like a CG. Is this right? Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 So if they are saying its a AD it wouldn't play the same as a CG if I played it the same. As you say it must be AE or it wouldn't play correct when played like a CG. Is this right? No. What people are trying to explain, Ron, is that only button accordions / melodeons are in A/D (which is low A and high D), with the two rows a fourth apart. Concertinas have the two rows a fifth apart, and in D/A (low D and high A), which is two semitones higher than "regular" C/G tuning. In other words, the keys are the other way around on a concertina compared with a button accordion / melodeon. The store is WRONG in describing a concertina as A/D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darticus Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 So if they are saying its a AD it wouldn't play the same as a CG if I played it the same. As you say it must be AE or it wouldn't play correct when played like a CG. Is this right? No. What people are trying to explain, Ron, is that only button accordions / melodeons are in A/D (which is low A and high D), with the two rows a fourth apart. Concertinas have the two rows a fifth apart, and in D/A (low D and high A), which is two semitones higher than "regular" C/G tuning. In other words, the keys are the other way around on a concertina compared with a button accordion / melodeon. The store is WRONG in describing a concertina as A/D. Thanks I'll get back with them. If it was as you say AE would the A be higher than a CG concertina or lower? Thanks for your help Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 A concertina in A/E is three semitones lower than one in C/G, but it's not a common system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) I tried to post the original article here, but it destroyed the all important table - I'll see if I can put it on my site in the interim. Edited November 18, 2016 by wes williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Ron You could take a C/G concertina with you to the store and use it to compare with the one the store is selling. If it is a music store, rather than a used goods store, then they should be quite used to folks coming in and playing their instruments. Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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