Push Or Pull - Which Is More Efficient?

[BW77]

In the thread "Spring making" in the Instrument construction forum this remark was made:

"At least in theory fast and energetic playing is expected to be more efficient on pull than on push particularly when playing in the low keyboard range" ...the background being that conditions regarding spring action and pad dynamics seem to speak for that. But what is the practical experience ? Can you play faster on pull? Can you do a better staccato? Is it easier to do precise and delicate ornaments on pull than push? Doing energetic and crisp rhythmical chords?....Or when is push better, if there is any difference?

 

[Geoff Wooff]

Any differences in actuation whilst Pushing or Pulling can probably be eliminated by copious practice and mostly, I feel, concern muscular control rather than any advantages donated by the mechanisms of the instrument.

 

Yes it may be easier to finger quick passages low down on an EC whilst pulling on the bellows and long familiarity with the keyboard may cause one not to notice that certain types of passages favour a pull or push.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by Geoff Wooff

[BW77]

1) Any differences in actuation whilst Pushing or Pulling can probably be eliminated by copious practice and mostly, I feel, concern muscular control rather than any advantages donated by the mechanisms of the instrument.

 

2) Yes it may be easier to finger quick passages low down on an EC whilst pulling on the bellows

 

1) One factor which was mentioned in the other thread ( Spring making) is the sealing by the pads which is more efficient on pull. In the low range particularly - if pad holes are larger - you may get a pad leak on energetic push and this of course can not be compensated by any other practise than playing on pull. What you expect from this is better stacatto on pull for example.

Tango bandonionists ( playing forced stacatto chords) mostly do say 90% of the music on pull and draw a deep breath on push. The reason for this might be the said better sealing or maybe that the long bellows are easier to handle on pull. Some reader who knows?

 

2) Yes, one interesting example. With anglos on the other hand since the tonic and dominant in the main keys are on push, melody lines and accompaniment chords may favour playing on push

 

Geoff also mentions muscular control. I believe this to some part may favour push as the dominating "stroke" since much of our everyday work means that the arms are more involved in flexion movements and thus it may come easier putting strong beats on push than pull. Here practise certainly comes in. Playing violine for example favours draw=pull( squeezebox-wise). Maybe it would be preferable "by copious practice" doing the same with concertinas? I have the feeling that most players put the strong beat on push rather than pull for example - or am I mistaken?

[Geoff Wooff]

The Bandoneon is an awkward beast and heavy to push IN whilst keeping one's fingers flexible. I get the impression that bandoneonists let the weight of the ends do some of the 'pull' work as the bellows extends and the ends are not supported on the lap.. Another point is that the fingering is different on push and pull, on a diatonique Bandoneon, so perhas this is part of the reason one sees them playing mostly, only even, on the pull... only one fingering patern to be remembered.

 

On the push stroke that long bellows reacts to destabilise the ends.... but perhaps that impression goes away with familiarity... I have only tried one for a few minutes before deciding it was too big for me.

 

Regarding concertina pads closing more securely on the pull; well yes one would imagine that to be the case, but what effect it has I don't really notice. If the springs are too light for the amount of pushed air pressure then the obvious solutions can be applied.

 

I notice that large 'chord snaps' ( used at the ends of melody sections pom pom pom pom gap BAM !)) work better on the pull but then I again put that down to muscular control by making a jerking movement outwards appears to be better controled.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Geoff Wooff

[Anglo-Irishman]

 

1) ...

Tango bandonionists ( playing forced stacatto chords) mostly do say 90% of the music on pull and draw a deep breath on push. The reason for this might be the said better sealing or maybe that the long bellows are easier to handle on pull. Some reader who knows?

Well, I'm not a Tango Bandoneonista, but I do play the Bandoneon occasionally. I see it this way: A Bandoneon is just like an Anglo, only more so!

 

That is, the Bandoneon is bigger, heavier, and has a greater bellows area, so you need more force to create the same pressure as in the smaller anglo. Also, the greater mass of the Bandoneon's ends requires more effort to reverse the bellows direction. On the up side, a 52-b Bandoneon has a lot more "alternate fingerings" than a 30-b Anglo, so you can reduce the number of bellows reversals, and the huge trap-door air-valve on the Bandoneon allows you to "inhale" a lot of air very quickly between two draws or two presses. All this adds up to playing predominantly in one bellows direction if you're looking for fast, fluid articulation. The long bellows of the Bandoneon are helpful here, too.

But why predominantly draw?

 

The Anglo and Bandoneon - and the duet oncertinas, too - have one common feature: the hand-straps. You press the bellows together with the palms of your hands against the ends, but you draw it out with the backs of your hands against the straps. For reasons of efficiency and comfort, your hands are not strapped tightly to the palm-rests - there is an amount of play between pressing and drawing. When you press the bellows, your hands are closer to the keyboard, and your fingers are more cramped. On the draw, your hands are that little bit farther from the keyboard, and your fingers are more relaxed and, above all, not tempted to help press the bellows.

 

That's my explanation, anyway!

 

Cheers,

John

[BW77]

1) I get the impression that bandoneonists let the weight of the ends do some of the 'pull' work as the bellows extends and the ends are not supported on the lap..

2) Another point is that the fingering is different on push and pull, on a diatonique Bandoneon, ...... only one fingering patern to be remembered.

3) On the push stroke that long bellows reacts to destabilise the ends...

4) I notice that large 'chord snaps' work better on the pull but then I again put that down to muscular control by making a jerking movement outwards appears to be better controled.

1) I've had the same idea particularly as some players hang the instrument over one knee when standing. When seated they often rest the ends on the knees

2) Yes...and maybe some idiomatic typical phrases like some runs are learnt on pull preferably, or certain chord patterns are comfortable

3) This I have guessed might be the main reason particularly with heavy staccato chords

4) Isn't that (3) precisely what you have noticed in such case? Then the weight factor and the stability factor cooperate in one direction....

 

The instriguing conclusion may be : wouldn't that work the same way with "our" concertinas ? Better do most of the work on pull?

[BW77]

 

 

1) ...

Tango bandonionists ( playing forced stacatto chords) mostly do say 90% of the music on pull and draw a deep breath on push. The reason for this might be the said better sealing or maybe that the long bellows are easier to handle on pull. Some reader who knows?

1) Also, the greater mass of the Bandoneon's ends requires more effort to reverse the bellows direction

 

2) The Anglo and Bandoneon - and the duet oncertinas, too - have one common feature: the hand-straps. You press the bellows together with the palms of your hands against the ends, but you draw it out with the backs of your hands against the straps. For reasons of efficiency and comfort, your hands are not strapped tightly to the palm-rests - there is an amount of play between pressing and drawing. When you press the bellows, your hands are closer to the keyboard, and your fingers are more cramped. On the draw, your hands are that little bit farther from the keyboard, and your fingers are more relaxed and, above all, not tempted to help press the bellows.

 

1) Just a little comment on this. The mass of course is (mostly) greater with Bandoneons but the effort to reverse the bellows direction is firstly a matter of end area and opening area of the reed slot since you are constantly working against pressure conditions. The mass factor is important mainly when carrying the instrument around....a certain difference....

 

2) This is really interesting and just like the conclusion in the previous reply to Geoff wouldn't that be the same for "us" and we better start behaving like "Tango Bandoneonistas" all of us ??

[bando_guy]

Tango bandoneonists play on the pull for many reasons. The pull is more efficient many long passages will only be able to be played on the opening (due to the valves being forced open slightly on push), also it is easier to make the chord hits on the strong beats opening by placing the bandoneon on the knee (used frequently in tango). It also facilitates playing standing up with many bandoneonists trying to emulate that stance.

 

Only certain bandoneonists play like this however. Look at any of the non tango bandoneonists (people who play waltzes, classical etc) and you will see them chug along both opening and closing. Here is one of my favorites who plays both opening and closing in this tango but it could be because he is more well known for classical bandoneon music. (he is a madman in the chair)

 

RODOLFO DALUISIO

 

https://youtu.be/2n_ILzMyeOI

[BW77]

Tango bandoneonists play on the pull for many reasons. The pull is more efficient many long passages will only be able to be played on the opening (due to the valves being forced open slightly on push), also it is easier to make the chord hits on the strong beats opening by placing the bandoneon on the knee (used frequently in tango). It also facilitates playing standing up with many bandoneonists trying to emulate that stance.

 

Only certain bandoneonists play like this however. Look at any of the non tango bandoneonists (people who play waltzes, classical etc) and you will see them chug along both opening and closing. Here is one of my favorites who plays both opening and closing in this tango but it could be because he is more well known for classical bandoneon music. (he is a madman in the chair)

 

RODOLFO DALUISIO

 

https://youtu.be/2n_ILzMyeOI

Many thanks for the comment! I feel as if my assumptions were not entirely imagination... and what an impressive performer! One more thought comes into my mind: WHY are ("our") concertina bellows so short ? The tradition says 4-8 folds or so...what might be done with 10-20...??

[Tradewinds Ted]

I would guess a small cross section means that a longer length would not be well supported, and might sag/collapse in the middle, while the larger cross sections of melodeons, accordions, and bandoneons allow for more folds. Or course those other boxes also usually have multiple reeds so they need that extra bellows volume to supply them. I note that some of the cheap import concertinas do use more bellows folds, and these models generally include a couple of rigid frames midway along the bellows, which I presume are for vertical support. I suppose these cheap versions are leaky enough that they may need that extra volume just to get by. I've read that quality concertinas built for the South Africa market tend toward the upper end of bellow folds, perhaps 8-10 folds? But 20 folds would likely be unstable, as well as adding extra weight on an instrument that is generally hand held without any body straps for support.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Tradewinds Ted

[BW77]

I would guess a small cross section means that a longer length would not be well supported, and might sag/collapse in the middle, while the larger cross sections of melodeons, accordions, and bandoneons allow for more folds. Or course those other boxes also usually have multiple reeds so they need that extra bellows volume to supply them. I note that some of the cheap import concertinas do use more bellows folds, and these models generally include a couple of rigid frames midway along the bellows, which I presume are for vertical support. I suppose these cheap versions are leaky enough that they may need that extra volume just to get by. I've read that quality concertinas built for the South Africa market tend toward the upper end of bellow folds, perhaps 8-10 folds? But 20 folds would likely be unstable, as well as adding extra weight on an instrument that is generally hand held without any body straps for support.

Well, 20 might have been to stretch it but what about 10 then? If South Africans manage/prefer it why not others? just an old habit? Stability is hardly an issue...if the extra volume is not needed you better play with the ( 10-fold) bellows fairly closed and stability is preserved. When extra volume is wanted you play like bandoneonists, mainly on draw. The difference of course is that anglos don't have as many doubled notes on both push/pull as bandoneons. The weight factor I believe is negligible compared with mass of box, mechanism, and reed works.

[Geoff Wooff]

Changes of bellows directions work more rapidly to reverse the pressure of the wind when the bellows is almost closed. This is due to a certain elasticity of the bellows materials the effects of which are diminished when close to shut. It is noticeable that most ITM players keep the bellows fairly closed for rapid articulation.

 

Longer bellows is usefull when playing in a chordal fashion.... a more Harmonic style.

 

So, for many people a shorter bellows is sufficient and perhaps preferable. I use a six fold bellows on my dance band EC where I use chords of up to six notes at times. For ITM I prefer another model with only 5 folds.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Geoff Wooff

[BW77]

Longer bellows is usefull when playing in a chordal fashion.... a more Harmonic style.

 

So, for many people a shorter bellows is sufficient and perhaps preferable.

Sounds reasonable...if players don't ask for more folds there is no reason for makers to produce them...to a higher cost but ITM means single note melody playing mostly. British Morris anglo style calls for energetic chords which consumes more air so you would expect greater demand for multifolded bellows for that idiom.... or what do the Morris players say themselves?

 

I do have an impression from Youtube videos that polyphonic/chord playing style may be rather common among South African players also. Anyone around to comment?.

 

Another bellows and stability matter...Old 19th century bellows often ( mostly?) have a significantly smaller cross-section than the wooden frame, In later years makers often make bellows with the same cross-section as the frame. In early and mid 20th century you usually find something in between. A wider bellows of course usually means more air capacity and more stability.

Is this always an advantage or may the shorter and leaner bellows be preferable for some/many occasions ? Geoff, mentions one reason for a shorter one. Some more?