Aussie Ebay Scam

[Stephen Chambers]

And here is quite definitely another scam, this time in Australia :

 

german made english concertina never used 3 rows white keys mint condition

 

Another "newbie" who will take only "Postal Order or Banker's Draft", and unfortunately for them they stole the photograph from Ken Coles' article Correction of wrist position on Anglo concertina using foam pads on this very website. The cheek of it !

 

I will be reporting the matter to eBay in a minute, but I am left wondering if they watch this column, seeing that I hadn't even reported last night's Wheatstone scam to them when they closed the auction. Or did somebody else report it ?

[Ken_Coles]

And here is quite definitely another scam, this time in Australia :

 

german made english concertina never used 3 rows white keys mint condition

 

Another "newbie" who will take only "Postal Order or Banker's Draft", and unfortunately for them they stole the photograph from Ken Coles' article Correction of wrist position on Anglo concertina using foam pads on this very website. The cheek of it !   

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

#$%%^& indeed. I still own that Lachenal and do not intend to sell it (if ebay needs my testimony to that effect I will happily give it). And it is hardly in "Mint" condition: finish worn off, rounded buttons, multiply-patched bellows, reedpan carved to take one larger-than-original reed, smoke stains inside --- and the best reeds of any of the C/G Lachenals I have owned.

 

If anyone can locate dianne1052 for me, I will fix him/her up with a piece of that foam pipe insulation in a fashion they won't forget. Once again, beware any ebay seller w/o feedback.

 

Off to check on that Lachenal, and maybe play it some.

[malcolm clapp]

Pity it is in Perth, 3,000 miles from here, otherwise I would play them along a bit....

[Paul Read]

I e-mailed them. They are on vacation and downloaded a picture because they're remote from home! The best bit is that they say it is a Staggi (sic), made in Italy. So this is a German made concertina made in Italy? I thought they left in 1943.

[Stephen Chambers]

I'm rather surprised to see that this one is still for sale on eBay, though none of the 195 people who have looked at it so far has been so foolish as to place a bid.

[Rob Johnson]

I reported this Aussie fraud to Ebay in two different venues - you might say regular and high octane (as a law enforcement official from a different jurisdiction) but have not heard back. Am sure others have done the same.

 

Cheers,

Rob Johnson

[Ken_Coles]

I reported this Aussie fraud to Ebay in two different venues - you might say regular and high octane (as a law enforcement official from a different jurisdiction) but have not heard back. Am sure others have done the same.

 

Cheers,

Rob Johnson

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I posted an irate report to them with the news that I own the box and took the photo and pointing out inconsistencies in the listing. 36 hours later I finally got the form letter back saying they had dealt with it. So why it is still listed on there I don't know.

 

As always we owe credit to you obssessive (oops, I didn't mean that) ebay watchers.

[Guest]

I have also reported this to ebay, so hopefully something will be done about it soon!

 

Cheers

Morgana

[Stephen Chambers]

Well I see that this is still listed, but the description has been revised to read :

 

"concertina english 4yrs old

never used mint condition 3 rows white keys Stagi Italy

 

english concertina Stagi made in Italy never used 3 rows white keys mint condition 4yrs old"

 

And the photograph (of Ken's rosewood-ended Lachenal) has disappeared.

 

I guess that eBay must have established that they are genuine after all, in which case sincere apologies to them, but they could hardly have made it look more dubious if they had tried, and using a photograph of somebody else's (and Ken's at that !) much better, and more valuable, vintage instrument (by a much better maker) is misleading at best, and could be thought a scam in itself. Couldn't they have found an image of a Stagi somewhere ?

 

Mind you, I still didn't hear of a three-row Stagi (or any other make of) English concertina before, so maybe it's an Anglo ?

Edited January 24, 2005 by Stephen Chambers

[richard]

Hi Folks

 

Here an interaction I had with this seller.

 

 

 

Question about your item

 

 

You asked:

"Hello I love your concertina is it really a good concertina. I want a good one. How good is it?"

 

 

Hi xxxxxxxx, My concertina is a good one, purchased new 4 yrs ago. It is a Stagi made in Italy. I recently had it valued at $1000 at Zenith Music here in Perth. I am away on Holidays and had to use a picture of a concertina from google. I return home Monday 24th January. regards, Dianne.

 

Richard

[Stephen Chambers]

I am away on Holidays and had to use a picture of a concertina from google.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, true enough the image of Ken's Lachenal does come up number seven if you look for concertina images on Google (out of about 6,990 results), but it doesn't look anything like a four-year old Stagi.

 

 

My concertina is a good one, purchased new 4 yrs ago. It is a Stagi made in Italy. I recently had it valued at $1000 at Zenith Music here in Perth.

Hmmm !

 

Wonder which model that is ?

[JimLucas]

It is a Stagi made in Italy. I recently had it valued at $1000 at Zenith Music here in Perth.

Well, that's about £410 UK pounds, or $770 US dollars, which is about 23% more than the Button Box price on a Stagi W-15 LN and even 6½% more than the BB price on a Stagi W-40. Well, The Button Box isn't the priciest shop in the world.

 

But it's most certainly not an "English" concertina, neither made in England nor the "English" keyboard. Even without the photo, the description tells us that. So is she really that clueless 1) about what sort of instrument she claims that she herself purchased 4 years ago, and 2) that showing a picture of something other than what's being sold -- especially without cautioning the viewer that it's only "like" the advertised item -- is fraud?

 

I am away on Holidays and had to use a picture of a concertina from google. I return home Monday 24th January.

And why was it necessary to run the auction while "she" was "away", rather than waiting until she returned and had a picture of the real item? As you can tell from my use of quotes, I still have serious doubts. After all, a common form of scam is acting naive in order to trick victims into thinking they're the ones doing the cheating. Then there are the restrictions on payment methods.

 

So I thought I'd google Zenith Music in Perth, to find out what sorts of concertinas they sell. It appears that they do exist, are located somewhat outside of Perth itself, and are a dealer for Fender guitars. However, the combination of "Zenith Music" and "concertina" got no hits at all, while about 30/100 hits on "Zenith Music" and "Perth" are gratuitous mention to get Google to pull up one and the same spam page, which doesn't itself even mention Zenith. Is there a connection between the spam and the seller (not necessarily including Zenith Music as a willing partner)? I really don't know.

 

Even though Ken's photos have been removed, I'm still surprised that eBay didn't force her to cancel the auction and start a new one from scratch. Her photos clearly violated their rules -- if she told them the same story she told Richard, -- and even though there are as yet no bids, there are people who saw the auction with the fraudulent pictures, and one or more of them could have placed snipes. Even if she's for real, eBay is doing this wrong.

[Stephen Chambers]

-- and even though there are as yet no bids, there are people who saw the auction with the fraudulent pictures, and one or more of them could have placed snipes. Even if she's for real, eBay is doing this wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed !

[malcolm clapp]

Not in any way to justify what may be a scam, but I think a couple of points of Jim's need clarification.

 

Jim, do I sense a bit of Aussie-bashing here? :-)

 

Z***th Music in Perth (Claremont is an inner city suburb) is a long established and well respected general music retailer, which, I feel very sure, would not be in any way involved in what may or may not be a scam. I'm sure Lionel doesn't read this ng, but I think he might be a bit peeved at the mention of his shop in the context of this discussion. I realise that your wording has been choosen very carefully, Jim, but the *suggestion* of guilt by association could be considered quite hurtful.

 

I doubt that this shop would have much knowledge of concertinas or their values, their source of information on concertinas probably being the local Hohner agent's cattle dog and the internet.

 

There is a Stagi importer in Queensland who carries a fair range of both English and anglo concertinas at prices that seem a bit on the high side compared with those of the Button Box et al. But costs such as shipping from Europe have to be taken into account when setting local prices.

 

Maybe the seller, or Z***th, contacted him for a valuation?

 

Regards,

Malcolm

 

PS I have used ***s so the name will not be revealed in a Google search.

[JimLucas]

Jim, do I sense a bit of Aussie-bashing here?  :-)

Absolutely none coming from me. If you "sense" any, it must come entirely from inside yourself. I didn't even name the country. And if the seller is a scammer -- something I'm not sure of either way, which was my point -- their real location could easily be in some other country.

 

Frankly, we here in Denmark are quite enthusiastic about Australia, even more so since you supplied our new crown princess.

 

Z***th Music in Perth (Claremont is an inner city suburb) is a long established and well respected general music retailer, which, I feel very sure, would not be in any way involved in what may or may not be a scam.  I realise that your wording has been choosen very carefully, Jim, but the *suggestion* of guilt by association could be considered quite hurtful.

Which is why I was careful to *suggest* the opposite, i.e., that any inappropriate use of their name was without their knowledge. The use of their name by the seller -- in a private email, mind you, and not in the auction text -- could be truthful, but the name could also have been selected by a scammer googling the internet to "randomly" select a music dealer in a particular area, but specifically one with no web site from which one could gather more information about their business and the likelihood of their issuing appraisals on a concertina. (I suppose one could phone the store to ask them if they had issued such an appraisal recently, but I think that would be excessive, even if I lived near Perth.) It's amazing how many people use "logic" like, "Well, the store the seller mentioned really exists, so everything they say about it must also be true." Scammers depend on such people for their living.

 

I doubt that this shop would have much knowledge of concertinas or their values, their source of information on concertinas probably being the local Hohner agent's cattle dog and the internet.

Which do you trust more, the dog or the net? Well, the only mentions my googling found of specific instruments associated with that dealer were all about guitars. This is partly what raised doubts in my mind as to whether they really did issue an appraisal on a concertina.

 

There is a Stagi importer in Queensland....  Maybe the seller, or Z***th, contacted him for a valuation?

That seems pure speculation on your part, Malcolm, but if the seller contacted Queensland, then she shouldn't be saying she got an appraisal from the Perth shop, and I would hope that neither dealer would be willing to issue an apparaisal without the actual appraiser examining the actual instrument. I think that speculation is less likely than the speculation that the auction is a scam.

 

Other possibilities also suggest themselves. E.g., if the seller is "legit" but thinks it appropriate to use a photo of Ken's Lachenal to advertise her Stagi, it seems possible that she could have gone into Z***th Music, asked them the price of a new Stagi, and then interpreted that as a "valuation" of her instrument. Many possibilities, because there are many uncertainties.

 

So I'll repeat, the auction might be "for real", but it's peppered with warning signs typical of scams, and in my opinion the off-auction, difficult-to-verify claim of an appraisal is one of them.

 

P.S. A language thing: You said, "Claremont is an inner city suburb." To me, the term "inner city" means the older, central part of the city, while "suburb" means an area outside of a city, though associated with it. So which is Claremont?

[Guest]

Hi All,

 

I contacted the seller, with some general questions, and was also told that it was a Stagi from Italy. Maybe she is just a total novice with concertinas and the Internet? (A lot of people don't seem to realise that copyright exists on the web too).

 

The price, AUD$1000, is alot of money for a Stagi; however the only shop here in Melbourne that regularly sells concertinas sells the base model for exactly $1000, so I wasn't suprised at the price.

 

Zenith in Perth sounds to me like an a normal run of the mill Aussie music store that makes most of it's money as a Fender/Yamaha/"insert well known brand name here" dealer, that also deals in other instruments, perhaps some second hand. They probably don't have the staff/resources to spend a large chunk of time researching "exotic" instruments, did a bit of research, found one selling at that price and thought "that's the going price".

 

Yes, there are a lot of "perhaps" in that paragraph. I'm sure that Zenith tried to do the right thing; whether or not this is a scam we might never know; but I do think it's great to see how this forum rallies around each other to offer support.

 

As an "Aussie" I might admit I didn't see any Aussie Bashing in the thread above; just lots of passionate people expressing their point of view in a room full of friends

 

Jim: Down under "Inner City" usually means the suburbs on the fringes of the Central Business District (CBD). For example Fitzroy, which is seperated from the CBD by the suburb of Brunswick, is still considered "inner city". All suburbs within a certain mile radius of our GPO (General Post Office) are considered "inner city".

 

Just a few random neurons firing

 

Cheers

Morgana

[JimLucas]

Down under "Inner City" usually means the suburbs on the fringes of the Central Business District (CBD). For example Fitzroy, which is seperated from the CBD by the suburb of Brunswick, is still considered "inner city".  All suburbs within a certain mile radius of our GPO (General Post Office) are considered "inner city".

Which leaves me wondering what you mean by "suburb". In my understanding, the word means a part of the "greater" metropolitan area with which it's associated, but definitely outside the official boundaries of the central city and under separate governmental jurisdiction. I would consider a similar area within the city's legal boundaries to be a "neighborhood", but not a "suburb".

 

Also, in my experience "inner city" is a condescending term. The "inner city" is a former "city center" that subsequent growth and migration of both business and residents have abandoned to poverty and decay. The term wouldn't be used for a central area that is still (or again) flourishing.

[Stephen Chambers]

... the likelihood of their issuing appraisals on a concertina.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Being in the music business, I can say that the concept of "an appraisal" seems to be very much an American one, certainly unheard of here in Ireland, and maybe so in Australia ?

 

... it seems possible that she could have gone into Z***th Music, asked them the price of a new Stagi, and then interpreted that as a "valuation" of her instrument.

That seems more likely to me.