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darticus

Hayden Style Concertina Vs Piano Accordion

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Is there a connection to similar playing here. They seem to be similar in method. Maybe someone can expand on this. Thanks Ron

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The chordal set up of the Stradella bass keyboard of an accordion is somewhat similar to the note layout of a Hayden Duet and thus it is possible to make an accompaniment on the Hayden which can resemble that of a Piano Accordion.

 

This, of course, is a very simplistic over view and there is a lot more to it.

Edited by Geoff Wooff

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I can speak to this somewhat. I consider myself a "very good" piano accordionist and I added a Hayden Duet to my collection several years ago to have something small that I could sit on the floor with my newborn daughter and play. I would not say that the systems are similar in general. But there are some similarities. The biggest plus of the Hayden system is the logic behind it. So, if you are used to the logic behind the stradella bass system in the LH of the accordion, you will not have trouble finding the logic and the patterns in the Hayden system. And, once you understand the logic and are used to the chords, the same patterns can be done in any key over the range of the instrument. In that way, it is much like the LH of the accordion. I would actually not make a significant comparison to the piano side of the accordion. The Hayden system is much more logical and consistent than a piano keyboard. Note that this doesn't make it "better", especially if you've spent years perfecting your piano arpeggios and scales. But it is more logical.

 

The Duet systems, in general, are also similar to the accordion (or piano, or other keyboard instrument) in that they allow easy playing of accompaniment in the left hand with melody in the right hand, or counterpoints between the hands, etc.

 

So, while I would not say the systems are particularly similar, I will say that my background with piano and theory transferred very nicely. It was very easy for me to spend 3-5 days with the Tutor that came with the Elise Hayden Duet and feel that I was then confident to pick up most any basic folk or children's song and play melody and chords with my kids. In full disclosure, lest I risk setting expectations wrong, I have a music degree from the university. So when I say that I have a "background with piano and theory", that's where I'm coming from. If you've played piano accordion for years, I would expect you'll pick up the Hayden quickly. If you've played piano accordion for 1 year, your experience might not fit the "3-5 days spent with the Tutor" that I described.

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Thanks for the info.

Being and older piano accordion player it just might be helpful in using the Hayden. Thanks Ron

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A brief digression:

The Hayden system is much more logical and consistent than a piano keyboard.


I would disagree. They just have different kinds of logic.

 

I find the logic of the piano to be completely logical and consistent. It's logic is 1-dimensional, though in two different scales. There are no exceptions to its logic in either the C-diatonic or the chromatic scale, though "distortions" occur when playing diatonically in other keys.

 

The Hayden is, in principal, completely consistent in a 2-dimensional logic, both chromatically and in all diatonic keys. But in real Hayden instruments the "all keys" consistency breaks down due to edge conditions. That breakdown tends to be more extensive in Haydens with more limited keyboard layouts (fewer buttons).

 

The Crane duet and the English, by the way, also have their own logics, though each of these logics is somewhat more complex than either the piano or Hayden, nor are they strictly geometrical in definition. The logic of the English is completely consistent; there is no ambiguity regarding how to extend the note range in conjunction with the keyboard size. The Crane's somewhat more complex logic can unambiguously cover up to 38 notes/buttons (3+ octaves) in a single hand before the logic breaks down. In fact, even the Maccann layout, though seemingly inconsistent in its middle range, has developed in such a way that where to put the notes/buttons for extending the range in either direction is unambiguous. (The anglo and its companion the Jeffries duet are quite another matter.)

 

 

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To expand some does a Elise or a Stagi Hayden allow you to play with enough range like a piano accordion? Maybe like a 32 bass or 120 bass accordion? These two only compared as that is my price range and maybe not even. Do they consider these Hayden's to be true concertinas even though they are different than a standard anglo? Ron

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To expand some does a Elise or a Stagi Hayden allow you to play with enough range like a piano accordion? Maybe like a 32 bass or 120 bass accordion?

Have you not found the keyboard layouts, so that you can do the comparison yourself? (Sorry, no time right now to search out links for you.)

 

Do they consider these Hayden's to be true concertinas even though they are different than a standard anglo?

Don't know who you mean by "they", but we certainly consider them to be "true" concertinas.

 

In fact, the name "concertina" was first applied to the "English", and only later to the "German"... which evolved into the "Anglo-German", a name subsequently shortened to "anglo". And of course, the other "duet" systems have always been known as "concertinas".

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To expand some does a Elise or a Stagi Hayden allow you to play with enough range like a piano accordion? Maybe like a 32 bass or 120 bass accordion?

Have you not found the keyboard layouts, so that you can do the comparison yourself? (Sorry, no time right now to search out links for you.)

 

Do they consider these Hayden's to be true concertinas even though they are different than a standard anglo?

Don't know who you mean by "they", but we certainly consider them to be "true" concertinas.

 

In fact, the name "concertina" was first applied to the "English", and only later to the "German"... which evolved into the "Anglo-German", a name subsequently shortened to "anglo". And of course, the other "duet" systems have always been known as "concertinas".

 

The keyboard doesn't look like a piano accordion to me. The strange difference from an anglo to this new set up might had earned the name accordion concertina or concertina accordion or melodeon concertina whatever. Just asking questions to people who know. If you don't know or don't want to tell don't answer. I find out from others. Sorry Ron

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A more similar accordion would be a chromatic button accordion (cba) with freebass on the left side.



Similarities include key neutrality and transposable chord patterns.


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The Elise and Stagi Haydens are what I believe is called "small compass" keyboards, in that they have a total number of notes much smaller than a piano, of course, and also much smaller than many piano accordions in the sizes Ron mentions. So, range is not the appeal, but rather, the logic of the layout for playing different keys in the same fingering, just moved over/up but using the same muscle memory for each key available. I am a huge fan of the Elise, which for about 400 bucks US brand new, offers a taste of this logic. I am beginning to use it for faster Irish music, and it seems like it might prove surprisingly useful, in the right (not necessarily mine, mind you) hands. I found the Stagi, in comparison, to feel slow and, well, "stodgy" by contrast. However, as a person for whom the piano only exists in the white keys, I can imagine that piano accordions make perfect sense for any who have already mastered the "12 fingerings for 12 keys" connection.

 

So, Ron, come to the NESI Squeeze-In next month, and get with folks who use all these wonderful machines. The folks from the ButtonBox are always there, with lots of samples for trial, rental, purchase.

 

Regards,

 

David

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The Hayden Duet is similar to both a PA (piano accordion) and a CBA (chromatic button accordion, AKA "Continental Chromatic") in these features---

 

1--It is unisonoric, one note per button, same on the push, same on the pull

 

2--The lower, bass notes are on the left, the higher, treble notes are on the right, so you can play melody right side, bass left side

 

3--The layout is in a FIXED pattern. The pattern is different for each of these systems, and in Hayden and CBA the pattern is not SEQUENTIAL as on PA.

But, all three have a "Rosetta Stone" or key, and you don't have to memorize a random assortment like on the bisonoric bandoneon

 

I know it's true you can play Irish tunes on a duet system. But it's really not the optimal system for that. It's tough to play Irish reels to dance speed all on the right hand for more than a set or so. If you're playing a single tune melody rather than melody and bass, and you're playing that single tune melody quite fast, Both the Anglo and the EC share the burden between hands much more than a duet. Duet is a good choice if what you want to do with it is play melodies with bass accompaniment--waltzes, tangos, etc. Or, counterpoint with multiple voices---Duets with lots of buttons are also very amenable to classical and jazz.

 

The Crane Duet is also a predictable, repeating pattern that is easy to "grok." But nobody is making them currently--Well, John Connor in the UK MAY be making them. But you can get a very quick and responsive accordion-reeded Hayden with plenty of notes at a minimal wait from either Morse (the Beaumont Hayden model with 46 notes) or Wim Wakker (the Peacock Hayden model with 42)

 

After PA, though, you may find duet concertina a little limited. A PA or a CBA will do much, much more. On the other hand, the compact size and portability of the duet concertina is winning indeed.

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Thanks all for suggestions and info. I think if I can find something I can afford I will give it a try. Thanks All Ron

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The keyboard doesn't look like a piano accordion to me. The strange difference from an anglo to this new set up might had earned the name accordion concertina or concertina accordion or melodeon concertina whatever. Just asking questions to people who know. If you don't know or don't want to tell don't answer. I find out from others. Sorry Ron

 

Regarding the name: I know, and I already told you. The anglo does not and never did define what is called a "concertina". It is a name that was first applied to Wheatstone's "English concertina" and only later applied to the anglo, presumably because of similarities in appearance and mechanism. And the "duet concertinas" not only share those same features, but were even described by their inventors as "improvements" on the English concertina.

 

Responding to your above, I can also say that I have not previously seen your terms "accordion concertina", "concertina accordion", or "melodeon concertina" used to describe any sort of duet concertina. As far as I know, the only type of concertina ever described (by those who make or play them) as a kind of "accordion" is the German one (which we now call "anglo"), which was so described by its inventor.

 

As for the range of the various instruments, they don't at all depend on geometrical resemblance. I don't play piano accordion, so I don't know the ranges of the various sorts. I believe you said you do play PA, so I assumed you would know. The layouts of the different Haydens -- which tell you for each which notes are available and therefore the range -- are readily available on line, so I thought it would be easy for you to compare them with what you know about PAs... much easier than for me to do so.

 

To expand some does a Elise or a Stagi Hayden allow you to play with enough range like a piano accordion? Maybe like a 32 bass or 120 bass accordion?

But as it's no longer late at night where I am, I've just done some quick Googling, with the following results:

  • It appears that in the right hand, 32-bass accordions have either 30 notes (from an E up 2+ octaves to an A) or 32 notes (from an E up 2+ octaves to a B ). The Elise has a total of 17 notes (from middle C up slightly less than 2 octaves to an A) and is even completely without any G#(Ab) or D#(Eb) in either hand. So no, the range of the Elise isn't even close to that of a 32-bass PA.
  • Several references indicate that 41 keys/notes is standard for the right hand of a 120-bass PA. The Stagi Hayden layout on the Button Box web site, which is for a 45-button instrument, has a total of 24 notes in the right hand... 25% fewer than a 32-bass PA, and far fewer than a 120-bass. So here, too, the ranges aren't comparable.
  • The concertina.com web site has this layout for a 67-button Stagi Hayden. I believe this is an older, discontinued model. With 34 buttons in the right hand, including a few enharmonic duplicates, this has a range comparable in size to a 32-bass PA, though significantly shifted in terms of lowest and highest notes. I don't know the left-hand ranges of PAs, so I can't do a comparison on that side.

But you should still be able to make some good music on any Hayden concertina if you 1) try arrangements intended for instruments of the same range or 2) create your own arrangements. Worth a try? Well, your latest post (posted before I finished writing this) suggests that you're going to do that. Have fun!

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The keyboard doesn't look like a piano accordion to me. The strange difference from an anglo to this new set up might had earned the name accordion concertina or concertina accordion or melodeon concertina whatever. Just asking questions to people who know. If you don't know or don't want to tell don't answer. I find out from others. Sorry Ron

 

Regarding the name: I know, and I already told you. The anglo does not and never did define what is called a "concertina". It is a name that was first applied to Wheatstone's "English concertina" and only later applied to the anglo, presumably because of similarities in appearance and mechanism. And the "duet concertinas" not only share those same features, but were even described by their inventors as "improvements" on the English concertina.

 

Responding to your above, I can also say that I have not previously seen your terms "accordion concertina", "concertina accordion", or "melodeon concertina" used to describe any sort of duet concertina. As far as I know, the only type of concertina ever described (by those who make or play them) as a kind of "accordion" is the German one (which we now call "anglo"), which was so described by its inventor.

 

As for the range of the various instruments, they don't at all depend on geometrical resemblance. I don't play piano accordion, so I don't know the ranges of the various sorts. I believe you said you do play PA, so I assumed you would know. The layouts of the different Haydens -- which tell you for each which notes are available and therefore the range -- are readily available on line, so I thought it would be easy for you to compare them with what you know about PAs... much easier than for me to do so.

 

To expand some does a Elise or a Stagi Hayden allow you to play with enough range like a piano accordion? Maybe like a 32 bass or 120 bass accordion?

But as it's no longer late at night where I am, I've just done some quick Googling, with the following results:

  • It appears that in the right hand, 32-bass accordions have either 30 notes (from an E up 2+ octaves to an A) or 32 notes (from an E up 2+ octaves to a B ). The Elise has a total of 17 notes (from middle C up slightly less than 2 octaves to an A) and is even completely without any G#(Ab) or D#(Eb) in either hand. So no, the range of the Elise isn't even close to that of a 32-bass PA.
  • Several references indicate that 41 keys/notes is standard for the right hand of a 120-bass PA. The Stagi Hayden layout on the Button Box web site, which is for a 45-button instrument, has a total of 24 notes in the right hand... 25% fewer than a 32-bass PA, and far fewer than a 120-bass. So here, too, the ranges aren't comparable.
  • The concertina.com web site has this layout for a 67-button Stagi Hayden. I believe this is an older, discontinued model. With 34 buttons in the right hand, including a few enharmonic duplicates, this has a range comparable in size to a 32-bass PA, though significantly shifted in terms of lowest and highest notes. I don't know the left-hand ranges of PAs, so I can't do a comparison on that side.

But you should still be able to make some good music on any Hayden concertina if you 1) try arrangements intended for instruments of the same range or 2) create your own arrangements. Worth a try? Well, your latest post (posted before I finished writing this) suggests that you're going to do that. Have fun!

 

OK, Thanks, You don't have to Google as I did it. I'm just asking as some people know more info because they have experience with the item. I ask too many questions sometimes and I'm trying to shut up and be a muted moron. Thanks Ron

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I don't play a Duet but I'm interested enough to want to know more about them and therefore find the answers your questions evoke to be good reading Ron.

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One thing I found with the Hayden keyboard is that whilst simple melodies come very easily, as does simple accompaniment, when more chromatic pieces are attempted the 'Edge' problems of the smaller keyboard versions can quickly cause a fair bit of side to side stretching or jumping.

 

Because all the sharps are to the right and the flats to the left (of the keyboard) it makes sense to have the G#'s and D#'s repeated as Ab's and Eb's. This does get one out of many stretch problems untill one starts looking for a Db after an Eb.

 

The movement of the hand position for simple chord accompaniment does remind me of the Stradella basses on accordeons, though finger usage is different.

Edited by Geoff Wooff

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I don't play a Duet but I'm interested enough to want to know more about them and therefore find the answers your questions evoke to be good reading Ron.

It is sure helping me thanks all. Ron

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