Concertina Recommendations For Beginners

[JimLucas]

If it's Irish type jigs and reels etc, you don't need to think for long. It's an anglo every time.

It can be played on an English, but you can't really replicate that punchy style that the in/out movement of the bellows gives.

 

Yes, you can. It's just that most players of the English don't make that their goal. I know more than one indivual who does get that style on an English, simply because they have consciously imitated the sound of anglo players. Keep in mind that there's no physical barrier to frequent bellows reversals on an English, though I don't know that even those I've mentioned use mainly that to get their "anglo" sound.

 

But also keep in mind that fiddles and flutes play very "Irish" music without that typically "anglo" sound. Just because an English concertina looks a lot like an anglo doesn't mean that it can only sound "Irish" if it sounds just like an anglo. I myself take much more inspiration from fiddles and flutes when I play "Irish" music.

[Jody Kruskal]

I take more inspiration from fiddles, guitars and banjos when playing any genre of traditional music.

[Patrick McMahon]

I personally think that one major feature of Irish music is the rhythm, and much of that is imparted by the stopping of the note.

In the anglo, that comes fairly naturally with the in/out bellows movement. The fiddle is ideal for rhythmic starting and stopping of notes, with the the bow jumping off the string, so it's similar to an anglo. I don't find the flute as rhythmic, but it adds a unique tone, but a tin whistle is generally more punchy.

 

I think, if you were intending to play Irish music, you wouldn't get many top teachers over there recommending an English.

It can be done, but they would all tell you to get an anglo.

[Chris Timson]

So. Anybody care to tell me what system this was played on?

 

Some music.

 

Chris

[Bob Michel]

So. Anybody care to tell me what system this was played on?

 

I'm going to guess English. It's beautifully played, and the ornamentation is very idiomatic. Still, there's something--I think it's a signature contrast, in Anglo playing, between legato and staccato phrases--that I'm not quite hearing. The effort to reproduce it is effective and convincing--I'd love to share tunes with this player in any context--but I'm also hearing (unless I'm imagining it, in which case I'll gladly eat crow) the effort.

 

Bob Michel

Near Philly

[Jim Besser]

So. Anybody care to tell me what system this was played on?

 

Some music.

 

Chris

 

English, played by a very skilled player.

[Patrick McMahon]

Tricky, but I would say English. But only with fifty fifty confidence.

If I heard it outside of this thread I would automatically think it was on an anglo. But if it's on an English or duet, it's a good player playing to sound like an anglo, which sort of makes the point. If you were a new player, and wanted to make music that sounds like it is played on an anglo, then why not get an anglo?

 

It sort of reminds me of a friend who has a painting done by a good artist in Hong Kong, who painted it with his feet, as he has no arms.

You could never tell, to look at it. But you wouldn't start a novice off painting with their feet, because of it.

[David Barnert]

Of course, the fiddlers and flutists (and even Anglo players) they are inspired by the sound of the uillean pipes, which are not known for their articulation.

[JimLucas]

So. Anybody care to tell me what system this was played on?

 

Some music.

 

Even without the hint of the file name, I would have guessed our old friend the folded ferret. On English, of course.

 

I'm going to guess English. It's beautifully played, and the ornamentation is very idiomatic. Still, there's something--I think it's a signature contrast, in Anglo playing, between legato and staccato phrases--that I'm not quite hearing. The effort to reproduce it is effective and convincing--I'd love to share tunes with this player in any context--but I'm also hearing (unless I'm imagining it, in which case I'll gladly eat crow) the effort.

 

No more effort than what you put into stuff that you have been playing for years. Jonathan has been playing that way for much more than a decade. By the way, doesn't it take "effort" to keep changing bellows direction? The fact that you're forced to do it doesn't reduce the effort... although practice usually does.

And I do wonder whether you would have come to the same conclusion if presented with that sound file outside the context of this thread. Is the difference between that playing and all good Irish anglo players really any greater than among those players themselves... Mrs. Crotty, Noel Hill, Mary McNamara, Fathe/Monsignor Charlie Coen, etc.?

I think Chris missed a bet by not first posting something by an actual (but not readily recognized) Irish anglo player. Doing so at the same point in this thread, I suspect that more than one individual would have guessed "English", just because they would be expecting someone to post what they considered to be a counterexample.

 

If I heard it outside of this thread I would automatically think it was on an anglo. But if it's on an English or duet, it's a good player playing to sound like an anglo, which sort of makes the point. If you were a new player, and wanted to make music that sounds like it is played on an anglo, then why not get an anglo?

Well, gee. what if you're not a new player, and what if you also want to play other kinds and styles of music? I know that Jonathan doesn't just play Irish, and I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first sort of music he played when he took up the (English) concertina.

 

It sort of reminds me of a friend who has a painting done by a good artist in Hong Kong, who painted it with his feet, as he has no arms.

You could never tell, to look at it. But you wouldn't start a novice off painting with their feet, because of it.

Not at all relevant, in my opinion. I'm pretty sure Jonathan didn't take up the English simply because he was unable to get an anglo.

 

[Patrick McMahon]

Well, gee. what if you're not a new player, and what if you also want to play other kinds and styles of music? I know that Jonathan doesn't just play Irish, and I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first sort of music he played when he took up the (English) concertina.

I'm just replying to the subject of the thread. Not trying to put down people like Jonathan. The thread question is what to choose if you're a beginner. It depends what you want to play, but if it's Irish you want to play, you're best off with an Anglo.

If you want to play a broad range of music, an English might be better. I'm not claiming that that would stop you playing Irish music.

That would be silly, even without listening to Jonathan's clip.

There are some players in Ireland who play on an English. But like I said earlier, any teacher over there would recommend getting an Anglo to a beginner.

And that raises another question. Where would you get good tuition, for playing Irish on an English?

[JimLucas]

The thread question is what to choose if you're a beginner. It depends what you want to play....

Exactly. And MissNim hasn't told us what she wants to play. In fact, she hasn't been heard from since her initial post. Have we scared her off with our arguing? If her main -- or only? -- interest isn't Irish, then we've hijacked her thread.

 

There are some players in Ireland who play on an English. But like I said earlier, any teacher over there would recommend getting an Anglo to a beginner.

Of course. It's what they're familiar with. How many would recommend something they may have never even seen, much less tried to play?

 

But who, if anyone, is available where MissNim lives, even for Irish on the anglo? We won't know unless/until she tells us where that is.

 

And that raises another question. Where would you get good tuition, for playing Irish on an English?

Good question. All those I know who "sound like" anglos didn't get "tuition"; they simply listened to anglo players and tried to imitate what they heard, experimenting with their instruments to discover what worked. Lots of us who play other styles (most of those that I know) learned the same way. Both live tutors and tutor books/recordings have always been scarce. They're becoming less so, but even for Irish on the anglo I wouldn't yet say that they're plentiful.

 

In the meantime, steering newcomers away from the English isn't likely to increase the supply of tutors.

[Peter Laban]

which are not known for their articulation.

 

A bit of a nonsensical and deeply uninformed remark, that one. Like with any instrument it fully depends on which player/style you listen to and for any instrument you will find players who treat music like a mere stream of notes. E.g. the concertinaplayers I usually refer to as 'typewriter' players.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Peter Laban

[Hereward]

I suspect a lot of beginners, particularly those with little prior music experience, may play like their concertina as if it is a typewriter; I'm sure I do still to some extent. I'm working hard on improving that, with the help of fellow concertina players but nothing worth having is easy.

[Peter Laban]

 

 

I suspect a lot of beginners, particularly those with little prior music experience, may play like their concertina as if it is a typewriter;

 

I wasn't particularly thinking of beginners.

 

Let's put it this way, on Friday night I was at the concertina concert of the Willie Clancy Summer School. Arguably the highlight of the Irish concertina calendar. When the concert was over I told a friend 'a great one this year, none of your typewriter players'. He knew exactly what I meant (and perhaps who, although I wasn't really aiming at anyone in particular).

 

It's really the difference between people who play music and people who play notes or roll off tunes by the yard. My point above was really there are poor and inarticulate players playing any instrument and it is rather silly (to put it politely) to put away any instrument as 'not known for their articulation'.

 

The closing concert of the Concertina Criunniú early this year included Dan Brouder and Angelina Carberry. Some ignoramus could say 'accordion an banjo, what can go wrong?' while the music was lovely. It all depends who's doing the driving.

[Hereward]

Thanks for that elucidation Peter. I shall redouble my efforts to avoid this mistake then, along with the innumerable other things that playing this instrument demands. I shall then try to get an honest assessment from someone about the musicality of what I'm playing. Come to think of it, my wife doesn't pull any punches and will give me just such an answer if I ask her; and she is a musician, which is more than I can claim at the moment.

[Chris Timson]

Tricky, but I would say English. But only with fifty fifty confidence.

If I heard it outside of this thread I would automatically think it was on an anglo. But if it's on an English or duet, it's a good player playing to sound like an anglo, which sort of makes the point. If you were a new player, and wanted to make music that sounds like it is played on an anglo, then why not get an anglo?

 

An English player indeed. Jonathan Taylor, who used to post on this forum, recorded in my studio.

 

I have always been quite strongly against telling people that they should use a particular system for any particular type of music. The anglo and the English (to simplify the discussion to just these two systems) tend to appeal to very different types of people. For instance I love the anglo whereas my wife Anne can't stand it - she finds it illogical and annoying. Conversely she plays the English, which she feels comfortable with but which to me has no appeal at all. I can see the logic in it but it doesn't reward me when I pick it up. I have a twiddle then think, no, where's me anglo.

 

The point of all this is that if you pick up a system because (and only because) someone tells you it's the system you should use for the music you want to play and it turns out you can't get on with it then you've wasted your time and your money and probably put yourself off concertina for life. Conversely if you get the system that you want to play then you will work out how to play the music on the instrument. Jonathan proves it can be done with Irish music on the English, Henrik Müller also of this forum is another - it's glorious to hear the two of them playing together.

 

So, stop telling people what sort of concertina to buy. Instead help them find the instrument that's right for them. It's the right way round every time!

 

Chris

[Mike Franch]

So, stop telling people what sort of concertina to buy. Instead help them find the instrument that's right for them. It's the right way round every time!

Hear, hear!

[Patrick McMahon]

Here's what I wrote in the Concertina FAQ a good few years ago and it's still right, I think.

 

 

• On the other hand if you play Irish music you shouldn't even think about buying anything other than a C/G anglo.

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have always been quite strongly against telling people that they should use a particular system for any particular type of music.

Chris

 

 

Those two posts contradict each other.

 

I think people are putting words in my mouth that I never said.

I just said the same as what you wrote here. ( but less forcefully )

I wouldn't dream of telling people what to play.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Patrick McMahon