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I've always thought concertina would be marvelous for the modal Middle Eastern or Indian/Pakistani stuff that is essentially melody lines. Would love to hear it in some Iranian classical music or Indian music.

 

The challenge with Arabic music is that many of the maqqam scales involve quarter-tones and other microtonal intervals.

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I've always thought concertina would be marvelous for the modal Middle Eastern or Indian/Pakistani stuff that is essentially melody lines. Would love to hear it in some Iranian classical music or Indian music.

The challenge with Arabic music is that many of the maqqam scales involve quarter-tones and other microtonal intervals.

 

I was singing with a Pakistani harmonium player the other day and the semi-classical songs we were working on sounded equal tempered to me, though I could be mistaken.

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... I'm not aware of there being any tradition of playing the Anglo concertina in Scottish

traditional music either - at least, all the old players that I'm aware of played English concertina.

 

I knocked around with several 'weel-kent' semi-pro 'folk' musicans in Scotland for many years, and as far

as I can remember, I never saw a concertina of any kind, anywhere.

 

Well I suppose "box and fiddle" would be predominant in a Scottish "traditional" context, and it's a long time since I was at a folk festival in Scotland, but I've a couple of old friends there - Norman Chalmers and Stuart Eydmann - who've both played English concertina in well-known bands (Jock Tamson's Bairns and the Whistlebinkies respectively), whilst former McCalman Hamish Bayne was making (as well as playing) English concertinas...

 

But any old players that I'm aware of all played English concertinas too, such as George Morris from Oldmeldrum, Aberdeenshire (who recorded for Beltona in 1931), Walter Dale of Glasgow (a prominent and very influential player of the English concertina during the period 1910-1935) or two of the "Four Mackinnons" (that I have a c.1920 Glasgow postcard of) who appear to have been 3 brothers (one on fiddle and two on English concertinas) and a sister who (from her dress and shoes) was probably a dancer.

Edited by Stephen Chambers
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I've always thought concertina would be marvelous for the modal Middle Eastern or Indian/Pakistani stuff that is essentially melody lines. Would love to hear it in some Iranian classical music or Indian music.

The challenge with Arabic music is that many of the maqqam scales involve quarter-tones and other microtonal intervals.

 

I was singing with a Pakistani harmonium player the other day and the semi-classical songs we were working on sounded equal tempered to me, though I could be mistaken.

 

 

Jody, agreed, what might be loosely termed the Indian classical traditions are generally equally tempered, especially when a harmonium is involved. There are in theory 22 steps to the scale but my understanding is that these are mostly expressed through inflections of bent strings, and the average sitar or sarod player thinks in terms of the same 12 chromatic steps that we do.

 

Arabic music is rather different -- there are quarter tones all over the place. Here's an example in maqqam Jiharkah on this page, where the upper part of the scale has 3/4 tone intervals:

http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/ajam.html#jiharkah

 

Some time back I had the pleasure of playing with Iraqi oud player Khyam Allami (I was on tuba) and achieving the correct intonation was extremely problematic and involved all manner of crazy fingering. Those adjustments just aren't possible on box of course.

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I've always thought concertina would be marvelous for the modal Middle Eastern or Indian/Pakistani stuff that is essentially melody lines. Would love to hear it in some Iranian classical music or Indian music.

The challenge with Arabic music is that many of the maqqam scales involve quarter-tones and other microtonal intervals.

 

I was singing with a Pakistani harmonium player the other day and the semi-classical songs we were working on sounded equal tempered to me, though I could be mistaken.

 

Jody, agreed, what might be loosely termed the Indian classical traditions are generally equally tempered, especially when a harmonium is involved. There are in theory 22 steps to the scale but my understanding is that these are mostly expressed through inflections of bent strings, and the average sitar or sarod player thinks in terms of the same 12 chromatic steps that we do.

 

Arabic music is rather different -- there are quarter tones all over the place. Here's an example in maqqam Jiharkah on this page, where the upper part of the scale has 3/4 tone intervals:

http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/ajam.html#jiharkah

 

I'll just mention that the English concertina was designed to play a 14 note scale (as were some organs, that have split accidentals) and I sometimes tune them (fifth comma meantone) that way, with half-a-semitone difference between both D# & Eb and G# & Ab (which would otherwise be "wolf notes" in that temperament)...

Edited by Stephen Chambers
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hmm.

 

I am interested by the responses people are giving on this thread, mostly people are not into the more repetitive parts of the tune. The thing is its just a repetitive arpeggio following a chord sequence, that part of the tune seems to me to follow the general pattern most modern dance music you would hear in clubs. Most mainstream clubs play music which is pretty much a beat, a chord sequence and then some vocal samples thrown in, its mindless to listen to but in a club its just a beat to dance to and people enjoy it. Most modern music I hear people dancing to is like this, I think it is a generational thing. If you listen to younger melodeon players in England (I use melodeon players as an example as there are not many young concertina players in England sadly) they don't sound like the generation before, they put in the odd bits of jazzy stuff, different rhythms and especially chord sequences that would not be found in traditional music normally. As a young player I find it very exciting, it gives this sense of having possession of something rather than just repeating it.

 

Perhaps we are somewhat dry in our approach to playing traditional music? The danger being that following a "tradition" can lead to a somewhat unadventurous musical style. To give another example:

 

I was in Ireland a while ago and went to some sessions, all of the fiddle players were very very good but they all played identically, I learned that most had been in competitions at points in time and some might have even had the same tutors when younger. Then there was this Canadian woman who had learned Irish music away from Ireland and completely put her own spin on everything. It was way way more interesting and full of life, the other fiddle players seemed so stiff and un humoured by contrast...

 

 

To conclude perhaps the piece of music that started the thread was not perfectly suited to the present audience

Edited by Jake of Hertford
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hmm.

 

I am interested by the responses people are giving on this thread, mostly people are not into the more repetitive parts of the tune. The thing is its just a repetitive arpeggio following a chord sequence, that part of the tune seems to me to follow the general pattern most modern dance music you would hear in clubs. Most mainstream clubs play music which is pretty much a beat, a chord sequence and then some vocal samples thrown in, its mindless to listen to but in a club its just a beat to dance to and people enjoy it. Most modern music I hear people dancing to is like this, I think it is a generational thing. If you listen to younger melodeon players in England (I use melodeon players as an example as there are not many young concertina players in England sadly) they don't sound like the generation before, they put in the odd bits of jazzy stuff, different rhythms and especially chord sequences that would not be found in traditional music normally. As a young player I find it very exciting, it gives this sense of having possession of something rather than just repeating it.

 

Perhaps we are somewhat dry in our approach to playing traditional music? The danger being that following a "tradition" can lead to a somewhat unadventurous musical style. To give another example:

 

I was in Ireland a while ago and went to some sessions, all of the fiddle players were very very good but they all played identically, I learned that most had been in competitions at points in time and some might have even had the same tutors when younger. Then there was this Canadian woman who had learned Irish music away from Ireland and completely put her own spin on everything. It was way way more interesting and full of life, the other fiddle players seemed so stiff and un humoured by contrast...

 

 

To conclude perhaps the piece of music that started the thread was not perfectly suited to the present audience

 

I too was a little suprised by the tone of some of the replies in this thread. I have to say i dont really understand where people are coming from.

An Iranian/Scottish concertina player who is in his twenties??? How cool is that? And there can be no question of his ability. I'm new to the concertina, i didnt pick one up till my mid 50's. We need more young people like this playing ALL kinds of music if the instrument is to survive and be part of a living growing tradition ( whatever that means ;-) )

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I am interested by the responses people are giving on this thread, mostly people are not into the more repetitive parts of the tune. The thing is its just a repetitive arpeggio following a chord sequence, that part of the tune seems to me to follow the general pattern most modern dance music you would hear in clubs. Most mainstream clubs play music which is pretty much a beat, a chord sequence and then some vocal samples thrown in, its mindless to listen to but in a club its just a beat to dance to and people enjoy it. Most modern music I hear people dancing to is like this, I think it is a generational thing.

I think you're on onto something. There does seem to be a different sort of aesthetic impulse here (different, at any rate, from what seems to drive most of the music I like), and it probably runs somewhat along generational lines. Plus there's a sort of competitive virtuosity at work that's certainly dazzling but (to my agèd ear) not terribly engaging. Different people listen, quite legitimately, for different things.

 

I sometimes think of traditional dance music (at least) as embodying a kind of dialectic between Groove and Story. There are genres and styles of music where I'll happily ride a good groove until the band drops dead of exhaustion, but in the context of Anglo-Celtic-American "fiddle" tunes I really do crave some kind of narrative: tension and resolution; beginnings, middles and endings. Is this generational? I'd like to think not, but then I remember my father, nearly fifty years ago, objecting to some new LP I'd just brought home: "It just doesn't *go* anywhere!"

 

On the other hand, "stiffness" is indeed an occupational hazard, and I love the idea of new approaches and arguments and appropriations. So probably I just need to listen again.

 

Bob Michel

Near Philly

Edited by Bob Michel
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I was in Ireland a while ago and went to some sessions, all of the fiddle players were very very good but they all played identically,

 

I am in Ireland all the time and while I can see your point if you're saying that a lot of young (say mid teens early twenties) players sound like they've been taught and stick to popular (band like) examples while they are finding their feet stylistically, I don't really see great stylistic uniformity across the board. Ofcourse when 'going to some sessions' you will see playing sessions and the session isn't exactly the place to indulge in great individuality, it's the sounding tightly together that counts in that environment. But at the same time there are great stylists with individual voices around on all instruments, both established and developing.

 

Traditional music has great scope for individual expression and for the careful listener there is an awful lot to enjoy when it comes to new voices and approaches. Music played with great variation and lift, true to itself. It's there if you want to find it.

 

 

 

The innovation vs tradition discussion has been going on for a bit and while it seems by now slightly old hat to refer to Tony McMahon and the Language of Passion twenty years after he first gave the talk, he still has a few points valid and relevant to this discussion.

Edited by Peter Laban
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hmm.

 

I am interested by the responses people are giving on this thread, mostly people are not into the more repetitive parts of the tune. The thing is its just a repetitive arpeggio following a chord sequence, that part of the tune seems to me to follow the general pattern most modern dance music you would hear in clubs. Most mainstream clubs play music which is pretty much a beat, a chord sequence and then some vocal samples thrown in, its mindless to listen to but in a club its just a beat to dance to and people enjoy it. Most modern music I hear people dancing to is like this, I think it is a generational thing. If you listen to younger melodeon players in England (I use melodeon players as an example as there are not many young concertina players in England sadly) they don't sound like the generation before, they put in the odd bits of jazzy stuff, different rhythms and especially chord sequences that would not be found in traditional music normally. As a young player I find it very exciting, it gives this sense of having possession of something rather than just repeating it.

 

Perhaps we are somewhat dry in our approach to playing traditional music? The danger being that following a "tradition" can lead to a somewhat unadventurous musical style. To give another example:

 

I was in Ireland a while ago and went to some sessions, all of the fiddle players were very very good but they all played identically, I learned that most had been in competitions at points in time and some might have even had the same tutors when younger. Then there was this Canadian woman who had learned Irish music away from Ireland and completely put her own spin on everything. It was way way more interesting and full of life, the other fiddle players seemed so stiff and un humoured by contrast...

 

 

To conclude perhaps the piece of music that started the thread was not perfectly suited to the present audience

 

Actually, I really like relentless repetition in general -- it's the execution of it here that's not to my taste.

 

But just as One Direction are not of my generation, neither is Mr. Amini. And his response to this thread might be (quite justifiably) to paraphrase Pete Townshend in "My Generation" --- "why don't you all just f-f-f-f-fade away..." :lol: I'm 40, so to a 20-something I'm a total dinosaur. I don't think this music is aimed at me. And that's fine.

 

While I think there's a lot in what you say about what can sometimes seem like "tradition in aspic" I also see a kind of new orthodoxy forming around what I lovingly call "melodeon jazz chords", which might expand the harmonic vocabulary of the instrument a bit, but once I've heard the piled up minor 7th chords a few times the novelty wears off and I find myself wishing for cleaner, starker harmony. Again, that's just my taste.

 

Stephen -- point taken re: meantone tuning but for Arabic music you're going to need more than just G#/Ab and D#/Eb -- for playing maqqam scales based on C you'd certainly want D half-flat and F half-sharp as well. (Has anyone ever built a microtonal concertina with a full set of quarter-tones?)

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I suspect that part of the issue with Mohsen's playing and the older generation's reaction to it is the separation of traditional music from the dancing which mostly - not exclusively - it was originally applied to.

 

Within the English traditional music scene, the emphasis on dance rythyms and the 1970's pushback to play traditional tunes slowly for dancing (as opposed to the 1950's and 60s fashion to play tunes at a speed such that a walking or running step was favoured and that stepping was impossible) has meant that such bands and "young guns" as there are have largely maintained a resonable pace. Experimentation with jazzy chords, twiddly transitions are there to be found, but even the more avant garde players seem to have stuck to the script.

 

I've lived in Scotland for the last 14 years or so and have noticed that within the general heading of traditional music, there are a lot of sub-cultures and they don't tend to mix much with each other. The highland pipers don't tend to play in combination with other musicians (even the solo pipers keep their distance from the pipe bands!), the box & fiddle community don't tend to mix with the folk club community, and there's a big distance between the folk who play for Royal Scottish Country Dance Society type dancing and the folk who play traditional tunes but for listening to rather than dancing. The RSCDS players play extremely strict tempo but it's recognisably in the tradition that William Hannah, the Wyper Brothers and Jimmy Shand would recognise.

 

I'm not sure when it happened, but there was a time when a younger generation in Scotland tired of the tempos and traditional tunes required for dancing and started playing more for concerts and for people to listen to. In order to keep the audience's interest - and perhaps to satisfy a younger ear - the playing became faster, more new tunes were written and more themes were borrowed from other genres and traditions. Silly Wizard, Red Hot Chillie Pipers, Salsa Celtica, Treacherous Orchestra - and many others. Even Aly Bain & Phil Cunningham (with at least one of them deeply rooted in the tradition) now play at a speed which would be impossible to dance to - even with a running step. And the concert goers love it. But what this means I think is that there's the potential for several traditions to co-exist which doesn't happen so much in other traditional music settings

 

Within the modern Scottish "tradition" there are a number of young bands who love the repetitive riffs, jazzy chords, noodly bits and it seems to have become something of a fashion. So much so that I've stopped going to Celtic Connection festival as so many of the acts I want to see have support bands who - to my ageing ears - have no Celtic connection whatsoever and no sense of the tradition which they have been shoe-horned into

 

Mohsen adds to this Scottish trend another sub-culture which is the "Irish within Scotland". In a number of the sessions you'll find across Scotland, particularly amongst the younger players, it can be hard to find a Scottish tune.

 

In summary:

 

I'm sure there's an age thing going on

I don't think you can blame competitions and awards

I think there's a complex Irish/Scottish basis to what Mohsen is basing his playing on rathger than any single definable "tradition"

I'm sure he's experimenting with just what he can do with the tunes, his instrument and his skill level

I think he's a fabulous player but I wouldn't necessarily want to listen to 2 hours of some of his stuff

 

I'm looking forward to reading the Tony MacMahon paper - thanks Peter!

Alex West

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The performance by Mohsen Amini is a breath of fresh air, from a talented musician, whether you happened to have enjoyed it or not. I would suggest that none of us need look far to find others who do not share our taste in music and are unimpressed by our best efforts. Such is life !

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The performance by Mohsen Amini is a breath of fresh air, from a talented musician, whether you happened to have enjoyed it or not. I would suggest that none of us need look far to find others who do not share our taste in music and are unimpressed by our best efforts. Such is life !

 

a very likable and humorously sympathetic approach...

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lots of interesting analysis here, i think that the melodeon jazz chord thing is probably not as new as I thought it was, I have only been into folk and folk festivals for the past 5 years so there is probably a lot that has gone on which some of you guys heard/maybe after a while got a bit tired of years ago but I am not aware of :lol: Maybe after a while I will get tired of it and prefer a more stripped back approach who knows.

 

All part of the rich tapestry I suppose

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I forgot about Middle-Eastern and quarter tones. Yes, I have a few CDs featuring incredible accordion baladi music. But it can be arranged beautifully for equal-tempered . Here is a link to some wonderful baladi playing from the recently late and much missed Walter Kuhr of Main Squeeze Accordions, which graced Manhattan's Lower East Side until Walter Kuhr's untimely passing about a year ago:

 

The baladi playing for the dancer starts a few minutes into it, but the preamble is also neat--

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76WO08r5gHQ

(Or, youtube keywords "MAIN SQUEEZE ACCORDIONS WALTER KUHR, CHAWA DICKINS & JULIA KULAKOVA"_

 

 

India/Pakistan, you can do quite ably on equal-tempered.

 

I have a wonderful solo CD of Indian harmonium music, and think melodic lines of this type would be wonderful on concertina or accordion:

"Golden Milestones: Harmonium Rare Collection" On the Saregama label. It's at Amazon, but the link won't copy here.

 

 

RE tut-tuts over "the tone of comments on this thread": I fail to see why people have to love music by a concertina player just because they have Iranian ethnicity. The type of playing people are expressing here that they are less-than-enchanted with, and the phenom of placing exaggeratedly high value on hyper-speed virtuosity, is hardly original to this prize-winner. People like Niall Vallely have been doing this same kind of stuff for years, and many of us can pass on it. Of course any creative person has every right to pursue any style they want, but . . . the "tone" you are hearing has the character it does because this stuff is being trumpeted as genius, brilliant, be-all-end-all, and, worse yet, folk or traditional, and there are those of us out here who find that whole phenom, an eye-roller. :rolleyes:

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In summary:

 

I'm sure there's an age thing going on

I don't think you can blame competitions and awards

I think there's a complex Irish/Scottish basis to what Mohsen is basing his playing on rathger than any single definable "tradition"

I'm sure he's experimenting with just what he can do with the tunes, his instrument and his skill level

I think he's a fabulous player but I wouldn't necessarily want to listen to 2 hours of some of his stuff

 

Nicely put, Alex.

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