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Baritone Wanted


Alan C
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Thanks for those quick responses. I've had a browse to the Hobgoblin site, that one looks nice, commission sale is fine but I think it's a little overpriced for a baritone.

 

The 1858 Wheatstone looks good too, unfortunately we get stung for the VAT and other charges when importing, the GBP is way down in value against the USD at the moment which makes a big difference.

 

I fancy the one at Red Cow, it's the right instrument and a good price, but the price could be a lot lower. VAT is a problem. You might ask why, we all have to pay VAT when we buy stuff. Yes, that's true, but . . . there's always a but :mellow:

 

VAT is charged on the increase in value. In the case of the commission sale VAT would only be payable on the commission element, and usually the seller would be billed for the commission so the seller would pay the VAT on the commission.

 

I did email Red Cow to ask about the price because on their website it shows the price with and without VAT. As it's a used instrument it qualifies for the VAT Margin Scheme. Why is that important you might ask?

 

Here's how the Margin Scheme works . . .

 

Dealer buys concertina for say £1,000 from private seller. Adds 20% markup, so selling at £1,200

If the normal standard rate VAT is charged then the buyer pays £1,200 + 20% VAT (£240) = £1,440

If the margin scheme is used, then the VAT is only payable on the dealer's margin of £200, so the VAT is £40 and the selling price is £1,240

 

£200 less cost to the buyer and the dealer makes the same profit. Details are here on the government website.

 

Looking at it another way, VAT was paid on the full price of the concertina when it was sold as new, so when it is resold as a used item the government has already had their VAT, they really are only entitled to VAT on the increase in value, which is the dealer's margin. If the dealer doesn't use the margin scheme then the buyer gets overcharged and the only winner is the government because they collect the VAT again.

 

I emailed Red Cow and suggested they use the Margin Scheme but have not had a response.

 

You might be wondering - yes, my business is VAT registered, so unfortunately I need to know this stuff :(

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Lovely one at Hobgoblin Brighton. I tried it out a couple of times. It's £1750 on commission. The guy won't drop his price so I dropped out. However, it plays beautifully and it's bang in tune so if you have the available money..........

 

I hate to disagree with anybody's opinion but, on the recommendation of Daddy long Les given on C.net some months ago, I made a vist to Hobgoblin in Brighton. Visiting Brighton was not the pleasant experience I recall as a child and since they have abolished the ' Park & Ride" service it was quite tricky to negociate those crowded streets looking for a cark park.

 

However, the problem for me with the Morse Baritone I tried at Hobgoblin is NOT ENOUGH AIR. The accordeon reeds appear to use quite a lot of air and the instrument is as small as a normal treble EC combined with a six fold Bellows.

 

If someone is a single note player then perhaps the wind supply is sufficient, but I play 'melody with chords', so I usually have two or three reeds playing at any one time and I do not think this instrument was designed with this in mind.

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The Morse bari at Hobgoblin: I am guessing that you folks are talking about the Morse Albion - Geoff said it was a normal small sized box.

 

I wonder if Geoff's comments would apply to the larger (7") Morse Geordie? I think that a few cnetters have Geordies - any baritone Geordie owners out there?

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R

 

Lovely one at Hobgoblin Brighton. I tried it out a couple of times. It's £1750 on commission. The guy won't drop his price so I dropped out. However, it plays beautifully and it's bang in tune so if you have the available money..........

I hate to disagree with anybody's opinion but, on the recommendation of Daddy long Les given on C.net some months ago, I made a vist to Hobgoblin in Brighton. Visiting Brighton was not the pleasant experience I recall as a child and since they have abolished the ' Park & Ride" service it was quite tricky to negociate those crowded streets looking for a cark park.However, the problem for me with the Morse Baritone I tried at Hobgoblin is NOT ENOUGH AIR. The accordeon reeds appear to use quite a lot of air and the instrument is as small as a normal treble EC combined with a six fold Bellows.If someone is a single note player then perhaps the wind supply is sufficient, but I play 'melody with chords', so I usually have two or three reeds playing at any one time and I do not think this instrument was designed with this in mind.

Sorry if I gave you a bum steer and that your experience of Brighton was not a pleasant one.

 

I play mainly single notes on the EC and of course have only been playing for a few months so mine was not the voice of experience. I really liked the sound but thought the price excessive. The one at Red Cow is the "right" price in my opinion.

 

As for Brighton, my very elderly mother in law lives there and we travel there from Essex quite a bit. The town centre is a total nightmare for parking, traffic and one way systems. Having said all that, the staff at Hobgoblin are always friendly and helpful.

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It's OK DLL,

 

I just went to look, on the off chance that you had found a gem, I was traveling down that way to visit family at the time.

 

I have found similar problems with modern accordeons ,which I attribute to poor quality reeds. In my ignorance I bought a new accordeon that might have suited someone with very long arms, such was the speed of air consumption , it was also small of crossection.I had mistakenly thought a small accordeon would be easier to learn on.... wrong! I lost a lot of money on that one so I was sensitive to the situation. I now have another newish accordeon which has twice the number of reeds per note yet uses so little air it actually feels hard to push and pull. The only difference I can think of is 'reed quality'.

 

Yes Don, it is an Albion. Perhaps this instrument is aimed at the 'stand up' player or the baritone voice of a concezrtina band, but I'd imagine the larger model, with a 7 fold bellows option, should have sufficient wind in its chest.

 

After Don's comments yesterday I had a look at the BB's website to remind myself about this instrument and wonder about the thinking behind producing treble and baritone versions using the same body size.

 

Yes indeed the staff at Hobgoblin Brighton were very friendly and helpfull.

Edited by Geoff Wooff
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[[[wonder about the thinking behind producing treble and baritone versions using the same body size.]]]

 

As it happens, I corresponded with BB at some point last year to ask about the baritone Albion as I was/am thinking about an accordion-reeded baritone. However, I would want it only with premium TAM reeds, not factory. Because the BB site added a note that the Albion was now available with a TAM upgrade (the Geordie had had this add-on for a while), I was musing between the two. And the reply I received, was that they did not think they could cut the TAM down successfully to fit in a Bari Albion's smaller size. So that decided it for me---if I do go for one of these baris, it would be the Geordie with a TAM upgrade and an extra bellow. Wouldn't do it without the TAM upgrade. I like the squawkier tone, and definitely want the enhanced response in a bari. BB uses the TAM reeds standard in their ANGLO bari. And I like the way that model sounds. Provided the reeds are the higher grade, I quite like accordion-reeded Baris.

Edited by ceemonster
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I have a Morse Geordie treble and play single notes so I find no problem with air when playing above middle C, but below that it does use a lot of air. I'm looking for something that I can play for singing. No hurry, I shall wait for the right instrument, it will come along when it does :-)

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Re. Geoff's thoughts about the Albion for stand up players.

 

Both Morse concertinas are light and the Geordie is only 8oz heavier (at 2lb 13oz) than the Albion.

 

I like the aesthetics of smaller boxes, but the Geordie bari seems to be a clear winner in all other respects, and there is not much of a price difference either.

 

So, does anybody here have one?

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[[[No hurry, I shall wait for the right instrument]]]

 

FYI, Andrew Norman, AC Norman Concertinas, offers a Bari EC. He makes good riveted action and quite loud concertinas. If you go to his "Products" link, at bottom of 1st page, click on "next page of products" and it is there.

 

Also Harry Geuns in Belgium, offers a Bari EC with full 48 buttons. Page bottom in his "Concertinas" link. I actually would really like one of those. I like the attenuated tenors and trebles since I don't need or want a full octave above "High C." But in a Bari, it's nice to have the full 48, so then you have up to "High C." Shied away for years from the Geuns due to the exchange rate since I am US. It seems to be evening up a bit . . . For a UK buyer this concertina would be no more expensive than Morse, and it might well be less.

Edited by ceemonster
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There's a Morse Geordie Baritone for sale at the Music Room's stand at Glasgow Royal Concert Hall for Celtic Connections just now. A friend of mine was playing it as I came out from watching Simon Thoumire's Strathspeys and Surreals show, and he had no issues with lack of air. He said he felt that the tone was not quite as sweet as an Albion he tried the year before, but that's a matter of personal taste I suppose. It sounded pretty good to me. £2,800 ish from memory.

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