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Rosewood Vs. Ebony


Rhomylly

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Chris,

 

I have used the simile that each old instrument we find is like an archaeological site and may tell us things we didn't know before. Yours may have ebony veneer. Even when the veneer is ebonized, the black may penetrate throughout it. You sometimes discover after 5 or 10 years of playing for hours a day that the color is leaving the veneer where the heels of the player's hands have "steamed" it. I admit I like to see this wear pattern and think of all the music it represents.

 

I take your point about the practical side of variation in woods used. It is interesting that the early makers (like today's) found combinations of woods that give each instrument a beautiful and individually distinct sound. I think I can hear the difference between early Jeffries concertinas with soundboards made of mahogany vs. sycamore (think that is what some are -- Acer pseudoplatanus, not our "sycamore," Platanus spp.). I am currently studying a superb early Bb/F with soundboards identified by Colin Dipper as solid birch -- very sober, full, deep tone, even for this pitch.

 

Dave,

 

I agree this whole topic is misplaced, but how to maintain continuity? Should Paul S. be asked to moved all the posts and leave a cross-reference?

 

Paul

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Paul said:" The player is not getting all the tonal information the instrument projects and may also hear some exaggerated unbalanced harmonics that diminish rapidly with distance. "

 

Goran now:Hmm....an occasional mindslip Paul? But of course it is partly right too...

1)The player does get *all the tonal information* from the instrument but the audience (at a distance) gets less of it..or NOT ALL...particularly less of the high frequency spectrum quantum which is relatively more lost on the way. Harmonic AND unharmonic....which explains that the 'tone' for the player is 'rougher' or 'brighter' or 'uglier' than for the audience

2) The player and the audience get a differently coloured mix of direct and undirect (from room acoustics depending sound)

3) The player may get less information compared to a close listener, particularly one facing either side of the instrument....a common distraction experienced in ensamble playing sitting beside a concertina player....or concertina players together....

 

Goran

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Dave, concerning your question about reasons for choosing these woods in your instrument...for woodcraft reasons or acoustics....I think it is not meaningful to speculate if we have no indication for either which. My view is that firstly you could expect technical/economical/occasional/ reasons being responsible. IF acoustical reasons were present they need not to be entirely rational....they could simply be related to imaginary benefits concluding that woods used successfully acoustically for other types of instruments would be good for squeezeboxes as well.

 

The misinterpretation of a possible effect by wooden plates in squeezeboxes acting as "soundboards" ( as in a piano or string instrument) due to the sensation of vibration in the structures have mislead makers into using certain materials...that is one example.

 

A more or less unique instrument as yours could be subject to some sort of individual choice of features by liking or experimentation, prejudiced or theoretical, not necessarily founded on practical evidence. I've come across quite a few instruments looking *very* nice outside and inside having unusual construction details but sounding pretty awful and maybe having stayed in their excellent condition just because of *that* ...they were accidental failures and nobody wanted to play them. I do not imply yours is one of them....on the contrary..it seems to have been used...but it is so easy for us to draw elaborate conclusions suiting our expectations.....

 

The raised ends....another example....for 'acoustics' or just for exotic looks...we have been into that a couple of times...:-)

 

Goran

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Goran,

 

I'm sorry if I was not clear. My meaning (whether or not I am correct, or whether or not you will agree) in that sentence was precisely:

 

1) The player, because of the location of his or her ears relative to the projection of sound from the instrument, does NOT receive all the tonal information the instrument projects.

 

2) Of course, the audience does not receive all the information either, but may receive more volume than the player (I think you agree here). I also contend that for some instruments, at some distance further from the player, due to loss of higher harmonics, there is a better balance of timbre (harmonic content of notes) both among the notes of each side, and between the sides.

 

3) The player not ONLY misses some of the volume of the instrument but A) due to mere proximity receives a higher pecentage of the higher partials (harmonics) that can be distributed very unevenly among the notes of each side and B) due to the location of his ears which are not ideally located relative to the ends of the concertina to receive highly directional sounds, the unevenness noted in A) that would be picked up by a close microphone is even more exaggerated when received by the player's ears.

 

That's my story & I'm sticking to it.

 

It's based mainly on much listening of myself, others, and recordings, and NOT on measurements, but may still be true.

 

BTW, instruments whose soundboards (traditional maker's term used here merely to describe a piece of the concertina, not to impute function) have been replaced with wood of another species DO sound different. To me. Again, I have no measurements & you are welcome to disagree.

 

Best regards, Paul

Edited by Paul Groff
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I think that the word "all" is the sticker here. Would Paul and Göran both agree that the "tonal information" received by the ears of the player is "different from" that received by the audience?

 

In fact, differential diminution over distance and acoustics of the space would make that information different for each listener, though *how* different is something I could only speculate on.

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Chris

 

you commented:

 

I think I assumed it was ebony because it was a black veneer, and if you are going to ebonise something, why would you put an ebonised veneer on, why not just ebonise the base wood? To find out you would have to take off the end plate and not many people do that.

 

Maybe it is just a really good job of ebonising. I hope I never ding it enough to find out!

 

I think you will find that the wood would have been ebonised ebony. The ebony wood is not full black, and can have light streaks to it, do it needed deep staining to make it even. The veneer may haaaave been needed to cover some elements of construction, but mainy as a bumber strip so small chips and scratches on the case edges don't go through an ebonised layer onto a different coloured wood.

 

Dave

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Dave,

 

On the early Jeffries I have seen, when the color goes out of the veneer it is a light gray. Texture and weight are also unlike ebony. I believe it was John Connor in Essex who suggested to me that the old ones had ebonized pearwood veneer. Again, close study would be needed to confirm this and there may be variation between different instruments.

 

Paul

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Paul,

 

I havn't seen an example of what you describe, so I was not aware of this fact. I certainly sounds like a deep stained lighter wood, and I would guess the you are right about the pear wood. Thanks very much for the information, I will log it away for future reference.

 

On the subject of fruit woods, my favourite has always been cherry wood, both to work in and to view. One day I shall get my hands on an absolute wrecker of an instrument and replace the outer shell with cherry, just for the fun of it. Yew heartwood would look even better, but is too brittle and dificult to work.

 

Dave

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Geoff Crabb told me just a couple of days ago they were pressed. He said several layers of wood would be laminated with the grain run staggered to make a ply and then pressed into shape while the glue went off.

 

I don't think it is an art so much as just yet another process which would need a jig made, and perhaps no-one has ordered a domed wooden end and been prepared to pay for the development time needed to make the jig.

 

Chris

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Domed ends:

 

[This discussion should really be both a separate topic and in a different forum, but I'm not going to make the effort to try to divert it, as I don't know how long it will continue.]

 

Were *all* domed ends made of laminated wood (that's plywood)? I don't think so. In my instruments with domed ends, I don't detect lamination at the edges where the fretwork is cut out. Solid wood could also be pressed, most likely using steam, but another possible technique would be carving. That's the way the top and bottom of violin bodies are made. As I recall, it's also the technique that was used by a friend (a much better craftsman than myself) who once made me a replacement end for an Aeola.

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My Dickinson Wheatstone Hayden is dome-ended (we refer to as raised-ended) and is made of 5 plies of wood. He told me that he does it on a mating form and press much like a bookpress. Hamish Bayne fabricates his raised ends from carving away (actually he uses a CNC milling machine) at a solid chunk of wood.

 

Our next concertinas will also be raised-ended. Sample ends have turned out quite well using an industrial vacuum process over a machined form.

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JL, I do think that the Ebony ends on my Edeos were carved or turned, or so it seems. I would like to know. If anyone has any trade skill info, I hope they let the shaft fly, so to speak. I'm a wood worker; I may learn something.... :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I do love these motile smilies. Regards to all, AW

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