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English Concertina Wanted For Beginner


toothwright

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Happily - and surprisingly - now been supplied.....with a Jack..

 

I would like to try an English concertina and should prefer a baritone model (Jack?).

I need to be able to write it off to experience if it doesn't 'take'.

The vendor would need to be UK based please.

Edited by toothwright
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  • 1 month later...

The Jack I have had (for all of a month) is proving a real pain for my thumbs and it has to go!

 

I would like to exchange it (with adjustment if required) for a Rochelle Anglo as I am more than happy with the construction and sounds from Concertina Connection and believe that this might be a more comfortable way for me.

 

Always the optimist.....

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The thumb issue is common for new players. It could be that the Jack has stiff bellows and that is putting pressure on your thumbs. Or, it could be that you are just not used to things. I know I had this issue with my first instrument, and it took quite a long time before I was able to play for more than a short time. Assuming you have some leeway in returning or exchanging I'd suggest you do two things: 1) continue to play for short periods and see if the issue alleviates. (The same advice I'd give if your little fingers were getting sore). 2) See if you can try an EC someone else has and note whether the problem is still there.

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Reality struck eventually, despite my elderly whinging!

I much admire players of diatonic instruments but accept that the technique is difficult for chromatic players - which brings me back to the reason for selecting the EC in the first place, it is chromatic...

My supplier has offered to be accommodating but as I choose the Jack because I like its sound, it's affordability if it proved a mistake and the pleasure of new learning I shall stick with it.

I am very grateful for cboody's advice of little, and perhaps, often practice sessions which I will implement.

Rod's question is very fair and I am reading The Ideas of Goran Rahm to see what I can garner from that and to search for any other similar implementations that have been reported.

Thank you for the encouragement to persist...

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The Jack and Jackie being larger than a traditional Treble EC they can be harder to push and pull. Combine that with a new Bellows which , others have also reported, need some time to work the initial stiffness out of and it is easy to see that a beginner might find the instrument a strain on the hands. These starter instruments are easy on the pocket but not so easy to play.

 

The use of an Anglo type hand strap on an Engish has been discussed on this website and indeed there are people who have tried it. The basic problem is that the keyboard alignment goes forward and back, not side to side, so the fingers need to be able to reach forward to the upper notes and that means a handbar would limit the range of movement forward and back to about 35- 40mm which would give a maximum note range of two octaves, or thereabouts. This would include some uncomfortable fingering positions. On a four octave EC the range of movement is something like 80mm. One argument is that for certain types of music two octaves is sufficient but it is a bit of a dead end rather like the often ignored detail of letting children learn to play the Penny Whistle left handed, which is very limiting if later on they want to play the Flute , Saxophone / Clarinet etc...

 

So too would be the restrictive hand position created by the hand strap/ bar like a duet or anglo.. with the thumb loop system of the EC it is possible to pivot the hands to play past the anchor point both up and down the keyboard.

Edited by Geoff Wooff
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[[[i much admire players of diatonic instruments but accept that the technique is difficult for chromatic players - which brings me back to the reason for selecting the EC in the first place, it is chromatic. . .]]]

 

Many bisonoric instruments are chromatic, not diatonic, including two-row button accordions whose rows are a semitone apart, such as b/c and c#/d, and including, largely speaking, bisonoric Anglo concertinas of 30 or more buttons. Anglo concertinas of 38 or 45 buttons are chromatic, not diatonic, and 30b Anglos are largely chromatic. However, 30b Anglos do not possess all tones in both directions, and are missing a couple of tones outright, but only less-used tones, on the low (left) side.

 

The technique of bisonoric concertina, can be difficult for some who "click" better with unisonoric systems. However, others find the bilateralism of the unisonoric EC harder to "grok."

 

 

RE your discomfort with your EC ergonomics: You might try not trying to fit your pinky into that thing, and putting it where you are comfortable. This can give a lot of relief to the entire hand, including the thumb.

Edited by ceemonster
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RE your discomfort with your EC ergonomics: You might try not trying to fit your pinky into that thing, and putting it where you are comfortable. This can give a lot of relief to the entire hand, including the thumb.

 

For myself, I find the opposite to be true. But I find that I don't hold the instrument precisely the same way as many who complain about pain. I've commented on this in various past discussions.

 

There's great variety in the size and shape of people's hands, and also in the way past use has developed the muscles in those hands. I don't claim that my way is necessarily best for everyone, but I do think it's worth trying. I'll see if I can't get some pictures within the next few days to accompany a new description.

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Of course one can use 'wrist straps' on an EC to ease the strain of pulling the bellows. This is most usefull on the larger size instruments and I use them all the time on my Baritone/Treble ( which is 8 inches across) but I also use them on the 48 Treble if I have to play standing up or walking about. They can take the weight of the instrument or at least share the load.

 

Pinky Rests; well I can take them or leave them. I've been told that I don't use them whilst playing but I notice that I do use the right hand one but not the left.

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ceemonster....please excuse my lax use of chromatic. I appreciate now that I should have said bisonoric in place of diatonic and omitted my incorrect reference to chromatic.
All I meant was that I have always been used to the same note opening or closing and I would find different notes, depending on direction, 'confusing'.

I hoped the Anglo hand arrangement might be adaptable to the EC (I know there has been a lot of discussion) but Geoff has pointed out the drawbacks.
I must admit to being surprised at the discomfort currently being experienced so perhaps trying a temporary hand/wrist strap might be worth while during the wait for the bellows perhaps to become easier.

I quite accept that a better instrument would help but I'm not sure whether I'll 'take' to the EC yet so can only try the various suggestions offered - and I am very grateful for them.

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Pinky Rests; well I can take them or leave them.

 

I don't consider them to be "rests". For me those finger plates are "grips", as I literally grip the end between the projections for my thumb (the loop) and my little finger (the plate). A corollary of this "grip" is that it utilizes the tips of both the little finger and (especially) the thumb. Jam your thumb through the loop up to the hilt, and you can't really use it to grip. (For a more obvious demonstration, try picking up a pin using the base of your thumb rather than the tip.)

And FWIW, I generally prefer to stand when playing my English concertinas -- even my baritone-treble, my "C-bass" (56-button, cello range), and my "G-bass" (35-button, down to G below cello), -- and I never use wrist straps. My hands both support the instrument and control the orientation and movement of the ends. Even when sitting, I most often hold the instrument suspended above my legs rather than resting on a leg. I find it gives me more control.

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OP, have you already mentioned your position when playing? If so, I missed it. If you're not doing this already, you might also try holding it on your lap slightly tilted at a 45-degree angle, in the manner of Anglo players. Some folks also find this a stress reliever, along with not trying to force your pinkies to adhere to those metal things if they do not sit there easily (on the pinkie front, you might try slipping into the thumb strap, relaxing your hand, seeing where the pinkie falls naturally, and undertaking a few days of play with it there). It's very subjective and particular to the individual.

 

I tried a cheap Asian-made EC for a couple of months and did indeed find its action resistive enough to contribute to stress pain. The problem was not the size, dimension, or weight---for me, that issue is negated by lap playing. The problem was, the reeds and action were resistive to a degree that caused discomfort, plain and simple.

 

RE, your "hope that the Anglo arrangement might be adaptable to the EC," I have been a voluble participant in some of those discussions you referenced. An Anglo-like arrangement IS adaptable to the EC . . . But it requires a re-think/re-design, and the developmental lab experiments to get us there have not been undertaken . . . YET. But for, very interesting work in this vein by Henrik Muller of this site, which is detailed in some of the discussions you've probably seen. I believe it is certainly achievable in a 38-40 key. We just don't have enough mad scientists on the case. . . YET. . . . :rolleyes:

Edited by ceemonster
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I have now started to play resting the EC on a small beanbag on my desk and this has reduced the thumb problem. I will try increasing the elevation to 45 and see what happens.

WRT the little finger rests, these seem to be in just the right place for me when I hold the concertina in the usual position.

As I am completely new to the EC and so do not have normal note positions to unlearn I wondered whether a 90 degree reorientation of the keyboard might work in the case of the Jack/Jackie where there is a lot of space?

The image shows the Jack as supplied and I have altered the image to try to show my thoughts.

post-11999-0-98059800-1452471872_thumb.jpg

Edited by toothwright
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It has dawned on me that this arrangement, by tying one to this concertina only, is a thoroughly bad idea.

Therefore I'm withdrawing into the wainscot and keeping very quiet while trying to learn the EC traditionally.

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Some EC players (including myself) tend to rest one end ot the concertina on a knee whilst rotating the instrument clockwise (as looked upon from the right side) up to 90 degrees without altering the instrument execept having the thumb straps widely opened. Works fine for me...

 

Best wishes for your learning to play the EC, it's a wonderful instrument! Wolf

 

have to correct myself in the details, see below

Edited by blue eyed sailor
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