Daddy Long Les Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) I've extracted this from my other post because it's right at the bottom and may get missed and I am very interested in other people's view on this subject i.e. describing a tune as being in a certain mode rather than having a key signature e.g. A Mixolydian versus A major. Please click on the link and then tell me what you think. If possible, try and approach it from the point of view of a beginner and in particular, one who is trying to cope with the dots for the first time e.g. a junior school-aged person such as I have taught for the past 40 years. (7-11). http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18071&p=172629 Scroll down to Lester's comment and view from there onwards. I'm not on a crusade here at all and will definitely be swayed by the opinion of the majority. Many Thanks Les Edited September 26, 2015 by Daddy Long Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lester Bailey Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) Deleted cus I'm not sure I understood it let alone anyone else Edited September 26, 2015 by Lester Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hare Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) ...I am very interested in other people's view on this subject i.e. describing a tune as being in a certain mode rather than having a key signature e.g. A Mixolydian versus A major... I've been struggling with this since I started playing the concertina (exactly one year ago today, as it happens!). I don't know that I have a 'view' so far, but here's a few references which I've found helpful, though to be honest, I'm still struggling... There's a good non-technical description of modes in A.L.Lloyd's 'Folk Song in England'. On the internet, see: http://pghardy.net/concertina/tunebooks/pgh_theory.pdf http://chrisryall.net/modes/index.htm http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes/ https://sites.google.com/site/paulinelernersviolinstudio/music-theory-2-minor-scales I found all of these helpful, though, as I say, I'm still a little confused... Good luck! Roger PS: Oh, aye, I mentioned modes to a small group of 'trained' musicians on the boat the other week - none of them had ever heard of modes - I think they thought I was making it all up! Edited September 26, 2015 by lachenal74693 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little John Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Modes are absolutely central to folk music, particularly folk song. Most people learn by ear and sing modal tunes without even realising it. I certainly know plenty who do. There is a story of an early folk song collector (someone will remember which) who noted down tunes in the field. When he brought them back to his university he was met with incredulity. "How can these peasants sing in modes? Even our undergraduates don't understand them!" There are seven (or six, or eight, or fourteen) modes. It depends on how you define them but there's plenty of academic literature you can look up, I'm sure. Basically, each white note on a piano can be the root of a scale of white notes, and these have different names. Start on A and you get Aeolian (harmonic minor in classical terms). From D you get Dorian. From G you get Mixolydian and from C you get Ionian (or major in classical terms). Note that you are progressively sharpening the 6th, 3rd and 7th as you progress through these. These four are the most important, but others are occasionally heard. Martin Carthy's Lucy Wan is sung in Lydian (Ionian with a sharpened fourth, or white notes starting on F), for example. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hare Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 ...There is a story of an early folk song collector (someone will remember which) who noted down tunes in the field. When he brought them back to his university he was met with incredulity. "How can these peasants sing in modes? Even our undergraduates don't understand them!"... I believe it was a comment made about some of Cecil Sharp's field transcriptions when he showed them to members of the Folk Song Society (as it was then called). There' a similar sort of tale about a German musicologist who was impressed with the ease with which the folks of the North-East of England handled modal tunes and songs. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 I found all of these helpful, though, as I say, I'm still a little confused... No suprise. These subjects have been discussed many times in this forums and many many more times elsewhere. Between reading and personal experience, I'm left with only one certain conclusion: There is still considerable disagreement regarding rules, terminology, and even just what the term "mode" covers. I don't worry about different ways of notating tunes, as long as they indicate the same notes and I'm able to tell what those notes are. I don't base any of my harmonies or chords on some rule about what "should" be done for a particular "mode", but only on what sounds reasonable to my "ear". In the end, people don't sing or play in "modes" because someone invented modes and they studied the invention to learn to use it. (Do we especially tend to forget that in this era of packaged computer applications and button-operated control systems?) Just the opposite. "Modes" originated as the academics' attempt(s) to describe what people had already been singing and playing for centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Laban Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Modes are absolutely central to folk music They are no strangers to other types of music either, from early church music to jazz improvisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little John Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Absolutely, Peter. Classical musicians practice major and minor scales. Courtney Pine (British jazz saxophonist) used to practice all the modal scales. And it shows, too, on his fabulous CD Europa played, incidentally, on the Bass Clarinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Laban Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) -ignore, I had posted a link, then doubted its usefulness and removed it again. Edited September 26, 2015 by Peter Laban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAc Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) . Edited March 4, 2016 by RAc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 26, 2015 Author Share Posted September 26, 2015 Thanks for all your replies and thoughts. I think a couple of people thought that I didn't understand modes. I understand the concept well enough it's just that my musical world is probably very different to a lot of people on here. Please read my long post in the other topic carefully. My point is that I have never thought it would be a good idea to introduce the concept of modes to 7-11 year olds who are already struggling to play basic tunes and chords on the guitar. I teach the guitar in school and I also instruct rock and pop choirs and musicians, again in the above mentioned age group so I have always thought that the basic idea of major and minor was enough for those children to cope with. If you're a teacher of that particular age group you'll understand I'm sure! The gap in my knowledge I referred to was my grasp on how ABC notation worked. Anyway, I will study everyone's posts in detail tomorrow amd take on board the various points made. Again, many thanks for taking the time to comment on this subject. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Campin Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Guitar is a rather anomalous instrument that adds all kinds of weird mechanical technicalities to music that ought to be understood more simply. The Kodaly method is probably the most dependably successful for children, and it uses the voice as a starting point. And modal systems have usually focused on vocal music - the mediaeval system was specifically intended as a practical tool to help an unaccompanied choir stay in tune through a whole liturgy. Someone who's fighting with a hardware design that builds melodies out of chromatic scales starting on six different roots a mixture of fourths and thirds apart, and says that you construct a major third by adding four semitones, has quite enough to cope with without also mastering a kind of music theory that actually makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAc Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) <deleted> Edited September 28, 2016 by RAc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 Guitar is a rather anomalous instrument that adds all kinds of weird mechanical technicalities to music that ought to be understood more simply. The Kodaly method is probably the most dependably successful for children, and it uses the voice as a starting point. And modal systems have usually focused on vocal music - the mediaeval system was specifically intended as a practical tool to help an unaccompanied choir stay in tune through a whole liturgy. Someone who's fighting with a hardware design that builds melodies out of chromatic scales starting on six different roots a mixture of fourths and thirds apart, and says that you construct a major third by adding four semitones, has quite enough to cope with without also mastering a kind of music theory that actually makes sense. Good point Jack and well expressed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 I think a couple of people thought that I didn't understand modes. I understand the concept well enough it's just that my musical world is probably very different to a lot of people on here. Please read my long post in the other topic carefully. My point is that I have never thought it would be a good idea to introduce the concept of modes to 7-11 year olds who are already struggling to play basic tunes and chords on the guitar. I teach the guitar in school and I also instruct rock and pop choirs and musicians, again in the above mentioned age group so I have always thought that the basic idea of major and minor was enough for those children to cope with. If you're a teacher of that particular age group you'll understand I'm sure! The gap in my knowledge I referred to was my grasp on how ABC notation worked. Les Les - please accept my sincere apologies for misunderstanding your previous quotes. My impression that you were yourself unfamiliar with modal scales stemmed from the following: However, I can tell you honestly that if I had put this piece of sheet music down in front of any of the thousands of people I have taught to play the guitar over the years without any explanation they would all have played all the Fs and Cs as natural. The terms "mix" or "mixolydian" would have meant nothing to them. My wife is a grade seven pianist and had never even heard of modes!! I chatted this through with her and she said that she too would have played the Fs and Cs as naturals unless told to do otherwise. Les I would have thought that you and your wife, both being music professionals, should have settled the issue a long time ago (then again maybe you haven't been married that long), so the natural conclusion to me was that neither of you had been familiar with the notion. Apparently that was a wrong one, apologies again. I believe we are basically in agreement about possible shortcomings of ABC notation. Best wishes, Ruediger Hi Ruediger, Thank you for your reply and apology. I think that the problem with topics on forums is that with every post, the waters can get muddied and people can get the "wrong end of the stick" as we say here in the UK! Please don't worry, I wasn't offended by your comment. To be honest, I guess we've all made assumptions when reading these things. Just to be clear anyway................. Yes, I understand modes but wouldn't want to burden my very young students with them. I think ABC notation is a brilliant invention and one that I perhaps need to spend some more time on although, like you, I have some reservations about it. My wife and I are from very different backgrounds. She has a classical background - classical piano lessons, grades, exams - everything by-the-dots etc. whereas, as I said before, my background is rock and pop, playing in bands, recording - I'm sure you get the picture! My main instrument is the guitar but I dabble in lots of others for fun. Anyway, I guess it doesn't matter what journey you take - as long as you end up playing a tune to a decent standard who really cares what key or mode it's in!? It's all in that all-important performance. Best wishes Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 27, 2015 Author Share Posted September 27, 2015 ...I am very interested in other people's view on this subject i.e. describing a tune as being in a certain mode rather than having a key signature e.g. A Mixolydian versus A major... I've been struggling with this since I started playing the concertina (exactly one year ago today, as it happens!). I don't know that I have a 'view' so far, but here's a few references which I've found helpful, though to be honest, I'm still struggling... There's a good non-technical description of modes in A.L.Lloyd's 'Folk Song in England'. On the internet, see: http://pghardy.net/concertina/tunebooks/pgh_theory.pdf http://chrisryall.net/modes/index.htm http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes/ https://sites.google.com/site/paulinelernersviolinstudio/music-theory-2-minor-scales I found all of these helpful, though, as I say, I'm still a little confused... Good luck! Roger PS: Oh, aye, I mentioned modes to a small group of 'trained' musicians on the boat the other week - none of them had ever heard of modes - I think they thought I was making it all up! Thanks Roger - some really good resources here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hare Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) Thanks Roger - some really good resources here! My pleasure - all part of the service! Couple of other 'resources' I have created in order to help me get to grips with modes (and music theory in general): 1) prepared a set of card templates, one for each mode with the notes separated by the appropriate tone/semi-tone intervals. I can then lay a template alongside another template with the full range of notes marked (including accidentals) and quickly read off all the notes in the relevant 'modal' scale, eg: D Dorian is - D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D - easy; not so easy off the top of your (my) head, F Mixolydian is - F-G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F. I hope I got those right! 2) used ABC notation and other computer software to prepare a set of .mid/.mp3 files which 'play' all these scales - I then carry 'em around on my tablet so that I can listen to 'em at any time, as a sort of reminder. Useful also for getting (partially) to grips with ABC notation. [This is work 'in progress' as they say.] Not to everyone's taste perhaps, but so far these schemes work for me... I am lost in wonderment at the prospect of your teaching this stuff to 7-11 year olds. When you've finished, perhaps you can come round here and teach it to a 67 year old! Roger PS: Ooh! I never realised 'Lucy Wan' was Lydian - 40 years ago, I just learned to sing the bugger (very badly!) by ear, which I guess, supports the point(s) made by another poster in this thread. What about 'Davy Lowston' then, what mode is that in? Edited September 27, 2015 by lachenal74693 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Campin Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 I never realised 'Lucy Wan' was Locrian It isn't. It's Lydian. What about 'Davy Lowston' then, what mode is that in? Aeolian, if you use the normal "Ye Jacobites by Name" tune for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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