The Irish Washerwoman - Playing The Same Note Twice (Ec)

[Daddy Long Les]

I am currently teaching myself the first part of The Irish Washerwoman in G major on my EC.

 

Start note is D (LH) then C (RH) then B (LH) and then two consecutive Gs (LH) then a D (RH) and then two more Gs (LH) and then a B again (LH) etc.

 

I am fingering the first two pair of Gs 1 then 2 and the second pair reversed i.e. 2 then 1 this brings my 2nd finger back nicely on the (RH) B.

 

Later on I have a similar scenario on the right hand i.e. C finger 2, A finger 1, A finger 2, D finger 1,

A finger 2, and then A again finger 1 which brings my second finger back nicely on the C.

 

Is this the right approach? i.e. using different fingers on the same note played twice. I know this tune should be played fairly fast. If there's a better way of doing this I'd like to know. The right hand section feels a bit squashed when I go for the low D with finger 1 but I guess it will come with practice.

 

I attach my tablature by way of explanation.

The Irish Washer Woman.pdf

[chas]

Opinions differ but that's exactly how I'd play the repeated Gs in that first bar so I'd say you were on the right track. Using different fingers gives you better control and switching the order of the fingers puts you in the right place for the next note, as you describe. Of course, an alternative would be to use finger 3 for the second B, but there's no need.

 

(It's even more important in a jig like The Geese in the Bog , which begins B|cEE GEE|cEE GAB...)

 

For the next phrase in Washerwoman, I think most people would play an E rather than your D. This isn't squashed as it's on the other hand. Your fingering of the repeated notes seems spot-on again, though.

 

It took me years to realise the value of using different fingers for repeated notes. It was Dave Townsend who persuaded me to start doing it and I use it all the time now.

Edited September 20, 2015 by chas

[Daddy Long Les]

Opinions differ but that's exactly how I'd play the repeated Gs in that first bar so I'd say you were on the right track. Using different fingers gives you better control and switching the order of the fingers puts you in the right place for the next note, as you describe. Of course, an alternative would be to use finger 3 for the second B, but there's no need.

 

(It's even more important in a jig like The Geese in the Bog , which begins B|cEE GEE|cEE GAB...)

 

For the next phrase in Washerwoman, I think most people would play an E rather than your D. This isn't squashed as it's on the other hand. Your fingering of the repeated notes seems spot-on again, though.

 

It took me years to realise the value of using different fingers for repeated notes. It was Dave Townsend who persuaded me to start doing it and I use it all the time now.

Thanks for having a look at this for me. It's good to know I'm on the right track and I'll try that E!!

 

Les

[Geoff Wooff]

One thing to remember is that those reiterated notes are of different lengths . This is why I prefer to play them with one finger, as I feel I have better control that way, and save the double finger movements for real triplets, quadruplets and beyond ( if there is one).

[JimLucas]

One thing to remember is that those reiterated notes are of different lengths . This is why I prefer to play them with one finger, as I feel I have better control that way, and save the double finger movements for real triplets, quadruplets and beyond ( if there is one).

 

I differ. Though I do at times play repeated notes with the same finger, I mostly prefer (and practice) using different fingers, because there's an enforced delay with a single finger (from having to lift it and put it down again), while less of a delay from multiple fingers, because the next finger can be dropping while the current one is still rising. I believe/feel that gives me greater ability to control the individual lengths of the separate notes, since I can deliberately delay the next attack if I wish.

 

Years ago I preferred the single-finger method, but time -- and practice -- changed my mind. Now I try to reserve the single-finger approach for when I want to put space between the notes. Nevertheless, single-finger can be easier to control in some situations, especially for a beginner, and it's usually advisable while one is still learning and getting comfortable with the keyboard layout. But Les, if you're already doing multiple fingers as a default, I would advise you not to back away from that.

Edited September 23, 2015 by JimLucas

[Daddy Long Les]

 

One thing to remember is that those reiterated notes are of different lengths . This is why I prefer to play them with one finger, as I feel I have better control that way, and save the double finger movements for real triplets, quadruplets and beyond ( if there is one).

 

I differ. Though I do at times play repeated notes with the same finger, I mostly prefer (and practice) using different fingers, because there's an enforced delay with a single finger (from having to lift it and put it down again), while less of a delay from multiple fingers, because the next finger can be dropping while the current one is still rising. I believe/feel that gives me greater ability to control the individual lengths of the separate notes, since I can deliberately delay the next attack if I wish.

 

Years ago I preferred the singe-finger method, but time -- and practice -- changed my mind. Now I try to reserve the single-finger approach for when I want to put space between the notes. Nevertheless, single-finger can be easier to control in some situations, especially for a beginner, and it's usually advisable while one is still learning and getting comfortable with the keyboard layout. But Les, if you're already doing multiple fingers as a default, I would advise you not to back away from that.

 

This sounds very sensible and good advice. Thank You.

 

Les

[Geoff Wooff]

One thing to note about this type of Jig is that the final bar of each measure is in the home key of the tune, G maj., and therefore the notes played should be ,in this case, B GG G and not B GF# G as many people do today. I see this as a modern desease that has been creeping into the tradition... ok fashions change , but the old people rarely did such things and it is musically incorrect to create a chord change at that point in the tune.

 

There is the other type of G major Jig where the chord does change in the last bar but this is not one of them!

[Anglo-Irishman]

A multi-instrumentalist's view:

There's an analogy between the concertina and two of my other instruments here. The "two fingers on same button" equates to "two (right-hand) fingers on same string" on the finger-style banjo, and "down and up plectrum stroke" on the mandolin. The respective tutors make recommendations, and this is what I have distilled form them:

 

On the banjo, the right index finger is assigned by default to pluck the 2nd string, the middle finger to pluck the 1st string, and the thumb to pluck the other three strings. When playing a melody that moves in crotchets (1/4 notes), e.g. 4 crotchets per bar in 4/4 time, it's quite ok to pluck successive notes on the 1st string with the middle finger. Even a brisk 4/4 can be played this way, with a bit of practice. However, when a sequence of notes occurs on the same string that are "half the denominator of the time signature" (e.g. quavers in a 4/4 tune), these should be plucked with the index and middle fingers alternately on the 1st string, or with thumb and index finger alternately on the 2nd string. Even if the tempo is largo, and you feel that you could manage by using the same finger for successive quavers. It makes the passage rhythmically smoother, more even.

 

On the mandolin it's similar: crotchets in 4/4 time are usually played with downstrokes of the plectrum, but two quavers should be played with a "down-up" stroke. Again, this is smoother than a hectic "down-down".

 

Now we come to the jig!

Jigs are written down in 6/8 time. That is, the "denominator of the time signature" is 8 = an 1/8 note = a quaver. This would seem to indicate that I should play consecutive notes on one string with one finger (on the banjo) or with two downstrokes of the plectrum (on the mandolin).

But I don't!

Because I count a jig - as most people do, I think - "One-and-a, two-and-a", rather than the "ONE-two-three-Four-five-six" that the time signature would suggest. So I'm reducing the 6/8 to 2/4 time, with each crotchet split into a triplet. And the notes of the triplet are now shorter than the "denominator of the actual time signature", and would be played with two fingers on one string of the banjo or with "down-up-down" strokes of the plectrum on one string of the mandolin.

 

As on the concertina, this issue does not arise every time cut time or triplets crop up. However, it occurs more frequently on stringed instruments, because there it's a matter of "same string", which of course occurs more frequently than "same note", which is the issue on the concertina. And the Anglo has the further advantage of duplicated notes on other buttons under other fingers.

That's probably why plucked-string tutors deal more explicitly with the topic than do concertina tutors.

 

So my rule of thumb would be "note duration greater than or equal to denominator of time signature: successive notes on one button with same finger; note duration less than denominator of time signature: two fingers."

Like any rule, it's worth breaking sometimes! And rememer, with jigs (and reels, too), it's not the written but the counted key signature that counts!

 

Cheers,

John

[Daddy Long Les]

One thing to note about this type of Jig is that the final bar of each measure is in the home key of the tune, G maj., and therefore the notes played should be ,in this case, B GG G and not B GF# G as many people do today. I see this as a modern desease that has been creeping into the tradition... ok fashions change , but the old people rarely did such things and it is musically incorrect to create a chord change at that point in the tune.

 

There is the other type of G major Jig where the chord does change in the last bar but this is not one of them!

Phew, my Washerwoman ends B GG G!

[Daddy Long Les]

A multi-instrumentalist's view:

There's an analogy between the concertina and two of my other instruments here. The "two fingers on same button" equates to "two (right-hand) fingers on same string" on the finger-style banjo, and "down and up plectrum stroke" on the mandolin. The respective tutors make recommendations, and this is what I have distilled form them:

 

On the banjo, the right index finger is assigned by default to pluck the 2nd string, the middle finger to pluck the 1st string, and the thumb to pluck the other three strings. When playing a melody that moves in crotchets (1/4 notes), e.g. 4 crotchets per bar in 4/4 time, it's quite ok to pluck successive notes on the 1st string with the middle finger. Even a brisk 4/4 can be played this way, with a bit of practice. However, when a sequence of notes occurs on the same string that are "half the denominator of the time signature" (e.g. quavers in a 4/4 tune), these should be plucked with the index and middle fingers alternately on the 1st string, or with thumb and index finger alternately on the 2nd string. Even if the tempo is largo, and you feel that you could manage by using the same finger for successive quavers. It makes the passage rhythmically smoother, more even.

 

On the mandolin it's similar: crotchets in 4/4 time are usually played with downstrokes of the plectrum, but two quavers should be played with a "down-up" stroke. Again, this is smoother than a hectic "down-down".

 

Now we come to the jig!

Jigs are written down in 6/8 time. That is, the "denominator of the time signature" is 8 = an 1/8 note = a quaver. This would seem to indicate that I should play consecutive notes on one string with one finger (on the banjo) or with two downstrokes of the plectrum (on the mandolin).

But I don't!

Because I count a jig - as most people do, I think - "One-and-a, two-and-a", rather than the "ONE-two-three-Four-five-six" that the time signature would suggest. So I'm reducing the 6/8 to 2/4 time, with each crotchet split into a triplet. And the notes of the triplet are now shorter than the "denominator of the actual time signature", and would be played with two fingers on one string of the banjo or with "down-up-down" strokes of the plectrum on one string of the mandolin.

 

As on the concertina, this issue does not arise every time cut time or triplets crop up. However, it occurs more frequently on stringed instruments, because there it's a matter of "same string", which of course occurs more frequently than "same note", which is the issue on the concertina. And the Anglo has the further advantage of duplicated notes on other buttons under other fingers.

That's probably why plucked-string tutors deal more explicitly with the topic than do concertina tutors.

 

So my rule of thumb would be "note duration greater than or equal to denominator of time signature: successive notes on one button with same finger; note duration less than denominator of time signature: two fingers."

Like any rule, it's worth breaking sometimes! And rememer, with jigs (and reels, too), it's not the written but the counted key signature that counts!

 

Cheers,

John

I'm with you John. Guitar is my first instrument with frailing banjo and I even play a bit of mandolin.

[Geoff Wooff]

 

One thing to note about this type of Jig is that the final bar of each measure is in the home key of the tune, G maj., and therefore the notes played should be ,in this case, B GG G and not B GF# G as many people do today. I see this as a modern desease that has been creeping into the tradition... ok fashions change , but the old people rarely did such things and it is musically incorrect to create a chord change at that point in the tune.

 

There is the other type of G major Jig where the chord does change in the last bar but this is not one of them!

Phew, my Washerwoman ends B GG G!

 

 

I am glad to hear that. Not one of my firm favourites but I find it fun to use as many re-iterated notes as possible, just to make a feature of it in this tune, especially in the B part where triple buttoning can be used, though I still use one finger for these. Have fun!

[Daddy Long Les]

 

 

One thing to note about this type of Jig is that the final bar of each measure is in the home key of the tune, G maj., and therefore the notes played should be ,in this case, B GG G and not B GF# G as many people do today. I see this as a modern desease that has been creeping into the tradition... ok fashions change , but the old people rarely did such things and it is musically incorrect to create a chord change at that point in the tune.

 

There is the other type of G major Jig where the chord does change in the last bar but this is not one of them!

Phew, my Washerwoman ends B GG G!

 

 

I am glad to hear that. Not one of my firm favourites but I find it fun to use as many re-iterated notes as possible, just to make a feature of it in this tune, especially in the B part where triple buttoning can be used, though I still use one finger for these. Have fun!

 

Interesting. I'm now working on an Irish tune called The Red Haired Boy which I play in A on a tenor guitar/banjo and mandolin. It's written in straight semiquavers but I've given it a hornpipe feel, changed it to G major and it sounds wonderful. I'm totally addicted to it and can't stop playing it - video soon!!

 

Thank you Geoff for all your interest, help and advice. I really appreciate it!

[Lester Bailey]

Interesting. I'm now working on an Irish tune called The Red Haired Boy which I play in A on a tenor guitar/banjo and mandolin. It's written in straight semiquavers but I've given it a hornpipe feel, changed it to G major and it sounds wonderful. I'm totally addicted to it and can't stop playing it - video soon!!

 

Red Haired Boy is normally considered to be in the Mixolydian Mode not a major??

 

eg

 

X: 1

T: The Red Haired Boy

R: reel

M: 4/4

L: 1/8

K: Amix

|:"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eAAA ABcA|"G"B=GEF "G"G2 FG|

"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eaaa afed|cA"E"BG "A"A4 :|

|: "G"g2 g"G"a gfef|gfec "D"d2 cd|"A"eAAA ABcA|"G"B=GEF G2 FG|

"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eaaa afed|cA"E"BG "A"A4 :|

Edited September 25, 2015 by Lester Bailey

[Daddy Long Les]

 

Interesting. I'm now working on an Irish tune called The Red Haired Boy which I play in A on a tenor guitar/banjo and mandolin. It's written in straight semiquavers but I've given it a hornpipe feel, changed it to G major and it sounds wonderful. I'm totally addicted to it and can't stop playing it - video soon!!

 

Red Haired Boy is normally considered to be in the Mixolydian Mode not a major??

 

eg

 

X: 1

T: The Red Haired Boy

R: reel

M: 4/4

L: 1/8

K: Amix

|:"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eAAA ABcA|"G"B=GEF "G"G2 FG|

"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eaaa afed|cA"E"BG "A"A4 :|

|: "G"g2 g"G"a gfef|gfec "D"d2 cd|"A"eAAA ABcA|"G"B=GEF G2 FG|

"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eaaa afed|cA"E"BG "A"A4 :|

 

Your version is different to mine. I downloaded mine off the internet several years ago - can't remember from where. It is in A major (three sharps in the key sig) - the Fs and Gs are not naturalised in the first few bars although there are one or two G naturals here and there a bit later on. It starts E A A G# A B C# D E F# E C# D C# D etc. so mine is not in A mix. When I can get to a scanner I'll send you a copy. Your version "works" as well. It just looks like the one I play is a "major" version of it and quite a lot of the tune is different although fundamentally it's the same tune if you get what I mean! I'll do a video of it soon and you'll see what I mean

[chas]

 

 

Interesting. I'm now working on an Irish tune called The Red Haired Boy which I play in A on a tenor guitar/banjo and mandolin. It's written in straight semiquavers but I've given it a hornpipe feel, changed it to G major and it sounds wonderful. I'm totally addicted to it and can't stop playing it - video soon!!

 

Red Haired Boy is normally considered to be in the Mixolydian Mode not a major??

 

eg

 

X: 1

T: The Red Haired Boy

R: reel

M: 4/4

L: 1/8

K: Amix

|:"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eAAA ABcA|"G"B=GEF "G"G2 FG|

"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eaaa afed|cA"E"BG "A"A4 :|

|: "G"g2 g"G"a gfef|gfec "D"d2 cd|"A"eAAA ABcA|"G"B=GEF G2 FG|

"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eaaa afed|cA"E"BG "A"A4 :|

 

Your version is different to mine. I downloaded mine off the internet several years ago - can't remember from where. It is in A major (three sharps in the key sig) - the Fs and Gs are not naturalised in the first few bars although there are one or two G naturals here and there a bit later on. It starts E A A G# A B C# D E F# E C# D C# D etc. so mine is not in A mix. When I can get to a scanner I'll send you a copy. Your version "works" as well. It just looks like the one I play is a "major" version of it and quite a lot of the tune is different although fundamentally it's the same tune if you get what I mean! I'll do a video of it soon and you'll see what I mean

 

I'm wondering how familiar you are with abc notation, Les? In A mixolydian, all the Fs and Cs are sharp. If the K field says "A mix" then there's no need to mark them as sharp. The G# you give here is very much a passing note and perhaps a bit ambiguous. If the stressed Gs are natural (as in bar 4 of Lester's transcription), then it's in A mix (basically major with a flattened seventh). Hope I'm not teaching my grandmother to suck eggs.

[Daddy Long Les]

 

 

 

Interesting. I'm now working on an Irish tune called The Red Haired Boy which I play in A on a tenor guitar/banjo and mandolin. It's written in straight semiquavers but I've given it a hornpipe feel, changed it to G major and it sounds wonderful. I'm totally addicted to it and can't stop playing it - video soon!!

Red Haired Boy is normally considered to be in the Mixolydian Mode not a major??

 

eg

 

X: 1

T: The Red Haired Boy

R: reel

M: 4/4

L: 1/8

K: Amix

|:"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eAAA ABcA|"G"B=GEF "G"G2 FG|

"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eaaa afed|cA"E"BG "A"A4 :|

|: "G"g2 g"G"a gfef|gfec "D"d2 cd|"A"eAAA ABcA|"G"B=GEF G2 FG|

"A"EAAG ABcd|efec "D"d2 cd|"A"eaaa afed|cA"E"BG "A"A4 :|

Your version is different to mine. I downloaded mine off the internet several years ago - can't remember from where. It is in A major (three sharps in the key sig) - the Fs and Gs are not naturalised in the first few bars although there are one or two G naturals here and there a bit later on. It starts E A A G# A B C# D E F# E C# D C# D etc. so mine is not in A mix. When I can get to a scanner I'll send you a copy. Your version "works" as well. It just looks like the one I play is a "major" version of it and quite a lot of the tune is different although fundamentally it's the same tune if you get what I mean! I'll do a video of it soon and you'll see what I mean

I'm wondering how familiar you are with abc notation, Les? In A mixolydian, all the Fs and Cs are sharp. If the K field says "A mix" then there's no need to mark them as sharp. The G# you give here is very much a passing note and perhaps a bit ambiguous. If the stressed Gs are natural (as in bar 4 of Lester's transcription), then it's in A mix (basically major with a flattened seventh). Hope I'm not teaching my grandmother to suck eggs.

I simply played Lester's version in Tunebook (Mac software) and the Fs and Gs came out as natural. In other words I opened Lester's version up in the software and pressed play on the computer and that's what I got.

 

I'm guessing this is wrong as A mixolydian is A B C# D E F# G A - in other words the same as A major but with a flattened seventh.

 

You're right of course Chas - I don't have much experience with ABC - I've only used a few of Lester's examples over the years.

 

It's obviously an ingenious form of musical shorthand that I know is used extensively, especially in the folk world.

 

However, I can tell you honestly that if I had put this piece of sheet music down in front of any of the thousands of people I have taught to play the guitar over the years without any explanation they would all have played all the Fs and Cs as natural. The terms "mix" or "mixolydian" would have meant nothing to them. My wife is a grade seven pianist and had never even heard of modes!! I chatted this through with her and she said that she too would have played the Fs and Cs as naturals unless told to do otherwise.

 

So there we have it - a gap in my knowledge which has now been filled. I take this firmly on the chin and thank you and Lester for pointing it out. I mean this - I'm not being sarcastic!! The fact remains, however, that whoever notated the version of "The Red Haired Boy" that I use didn't understand modes (or chose to ignore them) and thus put it in the key of A major - three sharps (F, C and G) and quite a few G naturals written as accidentals.

 

I've just had a quick look on the net and have found several versions written with three sharps in the key signature. I also found one with two sharps (F and C) which kind of makes sense as the scale that this tune is based on has all of the notes of D major with the odd G# here and there as an accidental in this case.

 

You see - it's confusing isn't it? I would really worry about even trying to explain this to a beginner. I can't tell you how many of my young school guitarists have given up over the years when I started using musical notation instead of tablature although admittedly this is something peculiar to the guitar. I guess this was part of the reason for me inventing my own concertina tab - no modes or key signatures there to worry about!!

 

I think it's fine if you're steeped in the world of modes and have been brought up like that but coming from the rock and pop world as I do, most folk like me (even if it's not technically correct) tend to think of tunes being major or minor. I do get the fact that modes are a better way of pinning down the actual notes played in a piece but I think we have to be very careful about how we teach this to a total beginner without scaring them half to death!

 

Anyway, I love the piece and will continue to work on it until I can play it! As I said to Lester, I will scan my version and show you when I can.

 

It's nice to keep learning new things - even at my age - but I'd be interested on other people's observations on this subject.

 

Phew.....that was a long post but I hope you can see where I'm coming from. At least I've learnt something about ABC notation tonight!

 

Best Wishes

 

Les

Edited September 25, 2015 by Daddy Long Les

[chas]

Hope I didn't sound patronising before. People sometimes write the key sig as three sharps then put naturals against all the Gs. Others just put two sharps in the key sig.

 

If you're interested, try downloading a free abc programme like abc Explorer and try pasting Lester's transcription into it to get the dots.

 

Both abc and modes are things found especially in the folk world and normal people are often unaware of them!

[Daddy Long Les]

Hope I didn't sound patronising before. People sometimes write the key sig as three sharps then put naturals against all the Gs. Others just put two sharps in the key sig.

 

If you're interested, try downloading a free abc programme like abc Explorer and try pasting Lester's transcription into it to get the dots.

 

Both abc and modes are things found especially in the folk world and normal people are often unaware of them!

Hi chas,

 

No not at all. I wasn't offended in the least. Truly!

 

This is the beauty of the forum - the pooling of ideas and information. I was just about to go to bed last night when I saw Lester's post and then couldn't sleep trying to puzzle it out so I got up and aired my thoughts in that long post!

Tune Book software does show the dots and, as you say, none of the Fs and Gs are shown as sharps. The problem comes with the computer playback from within the software where the app doesn't appear clever enough to take any notice of the "Mix" instruction and so merrily plays all the Fs and Cs as naturals. This is where my confusion arose! I'll have another look at this when I get a chance and see if there's something I need to tick in the preferences to get it to playback correctly.

 

I'm sure that's true about ABC and modes in the world of folk. My own personal misgivings notwithstanding, modes are very interesting and something I'm going to be delving deeper into.

 

Many thanks for your interest and for helping me out here. Old dog - new tricks eh?!!

 

Les