C Note Is Also Sounding C An Octave Below

[Daddy Long Les]

Hi,

 

My Lachenal 48 button EC has a problem.

 

When I play the C on the right hand side (one octave above Middle C) it sounds a C note an octave below at the same time. Sort of a bandoneon effect!!

 

It only happens on the pull. The extra C note appears to be coming from the same side. I'm sure it's not the actual Middle C note on the left hand side ringing in sympathy.

 

Fixable by me or return to shop?

 

Many thanks for any advice.

 

Les

[Geoff Wooff]

Could be a valve vibrating in sympathy or a loose reed. check that the reed frame is nice a firmly seated in the tapered dovetail slot and look for a leather valve that is a bit dry or curled away... the valves of that C note.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Geoff Wooff

[JimLucas]

My Lachenal 48 button EC has a problem.

 

When I play the C on the right hand side (one octave above Middle C) it sounds a C note an octave below at the same time. Sort of a bandoneon effect!!

 

It only happens on the pull. The extra C note appears to be coming from the same side. I'm sure it's not the actual Middle C note on the left hand side ringing in sympathy.

 

Could be a valve vibrating in sympathy or a loose reed. check that the reed frame is nice a firmly seated in the tapered dovetail slot and look for a leather valve that is a bit dry or curled away... the valves of that C note.

 

What Geoff said, but also do a similar check on the push reed. Strange things can happen if there's leakage between the two reeds in the same chamber -- e.g., if a valve doesn't close properly -- and especially if one or both reed frames aren't seated snugly in the reed pan.

[Daddy Long Les]

Thanks for your suggestions.

 

I'll give them a try

 

Kind regards

 

Les

[Daddy Long Les]

Tried that. All seemed good. Just out of interest I took a look at the levers and pads. Very scary, the lever popped out of the hole in the button. Had to to release the lever from the spring to get it back in. All back together ok but the original problem still remains. Weird!!

[Daddy Long Les]

Please have a look at this video and see if you can see anything I missed. I'm not sure if the curling up valve on the note in question is ok or not.

 

https://youtu.be/KZEKtMEWGMI

 

Let me know if you see anything .

 

Many Thanks

 

Les

[Geoff Wooff]

Please have a look at this video and see if you can see anything I missed. I'm not sure if the curling up valve on the note in question is ok or not.

 

https://youtu.be/KZEKtMEWGMI

 

Let me know if you see anything .

 

Many Thanks

 

Les

Watching a video in less than Full HD with a camera waving about... not easy to see anything before I started feeling sick, bit like being on a rollercoaster....sorry.

 

Can I suggest that you make another video playing the offending note(s) so's people can hear what it is that's troubling you. there are a set number of 'sick concertina' sounds which relate (usually) directly to a cause.

[Dana Johnson]

If it is a valve, it is the one next to the reed you are playing, ( the one inside the chamber. I find that I'd the valve has a reverse curl in it, so when it closes, the tip touches before the rest, so air can get under in the middle, the valve will alternately flatten and seal, then pop up in the middle again and cycle like that at some sync rate with the reed lower in pitch, because the vastly limper leather can't vibrate that fast. The valve itself can be raised at rest, but I haven't ever noticed the phenomenon when the valves curve upward. The opposite reed vibrating in sympathy even though it is slight, I think provided the pressure kick to counter the draw of the bellows on half the reed's cycle where it is swinging towards the valve.

Loose reed shoes vibrating in the slot ( either one ) as Geoff says, or sometimes a loose bit of the end or other wood bit can vibrate if that bit is at a resonant spot. Mostly, those cause buzzing noises though not that lower octave thing. You can try pulling out the press reed and seeing with that out, if the problem goes away, then put it back and lift up the top of the valve inside the chamber enough so that when you let go it either lies dead flat, or has the slightest upward curl. It will not hold the curl long, but may resolve it by going flat instead of arched up in the center. You don't need to disassemble the end to do this, just take the whole end off and set it aside, leaving the end plate and action plate together. Valves often change their shape sigh changes in humidity, since the hair side expands a little differently than the split side.

Dana

[Daddy Long Les]

Ok, I've recorded a fairly lengthy video where I demonstrate the fault and open the instrument up to try to find the fault.

 

This is the link:-

https://youtu.be/artO0jTQDvY

 

You can change the resolution of the video by clicking the gear wheel at the foot of the movie - all the way up to 1080pHD.

Please have a look and tell me what you think. To avoid all the boring stuff that you already know, here are the important bits that you can go straight to:-

 

1:39 The fault

9:48 The reed pan

12:18 Playing with the press reed removed

15:32 Playing with it all back together

 

Thanks for any help or advice you can give me based on this video

 

Les

[Chris Ghent]

Les,

 

I have found, no matter how much I resist it (no, it can't be the valve!), almost every obscure issue comes down to a valve, to the point that changing the valve is a prudent first step. Although your demo showed the opposing reed to be involved I would say the problem is the valve bedside the reed inside the chamber. If your symptom returns replace that valve. If you have no replacements, find a way to wedge the valve closed and see if the symptom disappears. I would have proposed when you first posted but I was intrigued the secondary noise was an octave and I was hoping someone brighter than me would tell us why.

 

Chris

[Chris Ghent]

PS. I understand the reason for the word "draw" being used was, Push and Pull both start with the letter P and therefore cannot be "initialised" without confusion in written music where the composer or arranger wishes to guide the player as to the bellows direction.

[Theo]

If I understand you correctly this is a recent purchase from Hobgoblin Music. If that is the case you should be able to get them to fix this under warranty.

[malcolm clapp]

As others have said/implied, it would seem that the problem is with that valve in the chamber. Looks to me just a wee bit too wide? I would suggest removing it carefully and reducing the width with a sharp blade by, maybe, a millimeter or so (hard to really tell accurately from the video just how much room you have to play with), then reglue it in such a position that the edges do not touch the side wall or the reed shoe, but of course covers the reed slot.

 

Another possibility is that there may be some slight sideways movement in the valve due to an uneven glue application...

 

Either way, that valve needs to come off and be reset; I'm sure that's what is needed. Trying to adjust the valve "in situ" is rarely an effective solution.

 

If you don't feel confident to do it, Hobgoblin would, I'm sure, fix it under warranty as Theo suggests. And if it is out of warranty, I should imagine the cost would be minimal for a 5 minute job like this....

 

 

(edited for grammar)

Edited September 14, 2015 by malcolm clapp

[Daddy Long Les]

Yes, I'm sure Hobgoblin will fix it. Just trying to save myself a 160 mile round trip to Brighton. In any event I've learnt a lot in the process and thank everyone very much for their kind help.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Daddy Long Les

[d.elliott]

Les,

 

don't know if you have resolved your issue, but from your video it does sound to me like one of two possible causes,

 

1. the sounding reed being held not quite tightly enough in in its slot, try bushing the reed with a bit of paper.

 

2. one of the two valves is fluttering. Others have described this above. If you are not sure, just remove the valves and replace them. It's quicker and cleaner than messing about with repeated tests and checks. Just check the chamber wall nearest the chamber side valve is not leaning over relative to the reed pan plate, If it is then be sure that adequate clearance exists to avoid the valve catching the wall when fully open or fouling the reed tongue when closed. trim the valve flanks as needed. When the valves are off, inspect where they sit to ensure no wisps of wood from the removal process are standing up, and again in the chamber side, that there is no old glue in the chamber wall/ pan plate corner that is preventing the valve sitting filly flat.

 

Oh! and while I think about it; you have not got a student model instrument, not with steel reeds, rosewood ends, bushed keys and moulded action box edging. Coloured keys were available as a customer choice. Never understood why, cannot see they key colours whilst playing, but hey-ho.

 

Dave

[Daddy Long Les]

Les,

 

don't know if you have resolved your issue, but from your video it does sound to me like one of two possible causes,

 

1. the sounding reed being held not quite tightly enough in in its slot, try bushing the reed with a bit of paper.

 

2. one of the two valves is fluttering. Others have described this above. If you are not sure, just remove the valves and replace them. It's quicker and cleaner than messing about with repeated tests and checks. Just check the chamber wall nearest the chamber side valve is not leaning over relative to the reed pan plate, If it is then be sure that adequate clearance exists to avoid the valve catching the wall when fully open or fouling the reed tongue when closed. trim the valve flanks as needed. When the valves are off, inspect where they sit to ensure no wisps of wood from the removal process are standing up, and again in the chamber side, that there is no old glue in the chamber wall/ pan plate corner that is preventing the valve sitting filly flat.

 

Oh! and while I think about it; you have not got a student model instrument, not with steel reeds, rosewood ends, bushed keys and moulded action box edging. Coloured keys were available as a customer choice. Never understood why, cannot see they key colours whilst playing, but hey-ho.

 

Dave

Thanks Dave

 

That's very helpful. So does my concertina have a model name then if not a "student"?

 

Les

[Daddy Long Les]

All fixed. Martyn White, who looks after my melodeons here in Essex, UK, sorted it out while I waited today. He really is a genius!

 

As some on here had suggested, he simply replaced both valves on that C2 and the problem disappeared.

 

He de-buzzed an Ab by adding a small piece of paper to make the reed frame fit better. He also re-set quite a few wheezy reeds and bingo! - we're good to go.

 

He too said that this is not a student model but a few "up" from that - rosewood ends etc. and he really liked the instrument which was comforting as it was a bit of an impulse buy.

 

I am so lucky to have such a talented fettler on my doorstep who also happens to be a really nice guy. He's not too shabby on the melodeon and the Anglo either!!

 

Thanks again for everyone who commented on here I really appreciated it. Now I can concentrate on playing. Hooray!