Daddy Long Les Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Hi, I'd like to find out a bit more about my concertina if possible. It's a Lachenal English 48 Button Treble with a serial number 88227. You can see the instrument in this video:- https://youtu.be/iVPD6zP5Wro Hobgoblin, Brighton where I bought it, told me it was made in 1903. The guy there used the website and performed the usual calculation. I've just realised that the note names are stamped on the buttons which I think are made of bone. The accidentals are black (faded in places) and some of the "whites" are stained red - I guess this is due to the endless rubbing on the red surrounds or whatever they're called. The instrument has rosewood ends and no fancy inlays.The thumb straps are held in place by brass thumb screws which are about 3/4 inch across. The bellows are 5-fold and have a green criss-cross dotted diamond pattern with a simple cross at each intersection. Can anyone tell me if this concertina has a model name at all and give me any more information? I'd be most grateful for any help. Many Thanks Les Edited September 11, 2015 by Daddy Long Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindizzy Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I think that the Lachenals with coloured buttons are called tutor models. (The red buttons are "C") Earlier models had bone buttons and the colouring does wear off, there may also be the remnants of the note names on the buttons. My first concertina was a later model and the buttons are an early form of plastic and the colour doesn't fade on these. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 I think that the Lachenals with coloured buttons are called tutor models. (The red buttons are "C") Earlier models had bone buttons and the colouring does wear off, there may also be the remnants of the note names on the buttons. My first concertina was a later model and the buttons are an early form of plastic and the colour doesn't fade on these. Chris Hi Chris, Of course!! How silly of me not to realise about the C notes! Thank you very much for your information. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Les are you sure about that serial number? I've never heard of a Lachenal English with a serial number higher than 61000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I think that the Lachenals with coloured buttons are called tutor models. These days, many people call them that, but as far as I know, Lachenal never did. I believe it's more a style of a given period. I know I've handled a couple of very high quality -- definitely not entry level -- Lachenal Englishes that had stamped and color-coded buttons. And I've seen plenty of lower quality ones where the buttons were all plain (neither stamp nor color). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Les are you sure about that serial number? I've never heard of a Lachenal English with a serial number higher than 61000? Hmm, well that's what the guy at Hobgoblin said. He had to take it apart to find it and it was stamped in the wood. To save me a load of grief could you kindly tell me which end to take off and whereabouts I'm likely to find it and then I can report back. Thank You Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Ok, I've taken off the right hand end and the number stamped into the wood next to the letter R is indeed 88227. Is there a chance that this isn't the serial number and if it isn't, where would it be? Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindizzy Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) My first Lachenal with the plastic ("erinol") buttons was a 60000 series number (Chris Algar reckoned it must have been almost the last one out of the door in ~1936) It seems the plastic buttons started around the late 1920's so your concertina will certainly predate that. (I think that you should be able to find the serial number at both ends - but wait for someone who knows better to confirm!) edited - crosspost - I see you've found the number :-) Edited September 11, 2015 by spindizzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 The style of numbers they used can make it difficult to tell the difference between 3, 8 and 5. Have a close look with a good light and a 10x hand lens and you should be able to tell them apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Took the reed pan out and the number is very clear in there. It's 38227. So what year does that make it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spindizzy Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) http://www.concertina.com/chambers/lachenal-production/ Have a look at the chart here - there are some confirmed serial number/dates to reduce the date span. perhaps mid 1890's Edited September 11, 2015 by spindizzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Ok - using Geoff Wooff's formula i.e. serial number divided by 769 + 1850 it's 1899. Does that sound about right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Ok - using Geoff Wooff's formula i.e. serial number divided by 769 + 1850 it's 1899. Does that sound about right? Ooooh, I would take that "Geoff Wooff's formula" with a very big dose of salt. He invented that back in the '70's... still it is perhaps a reasonably accurate guestimate for these instruments of the middle period. Edited September 11, 2015 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Ha ha , ok Geoff!!! Any other way of accurately dating it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Ha ha , ok Geoff!!! Any other way of accurately dating it? Yes. Someone else came up with their own improvement on the guess, based on some confirmed dates. I think it is an on going project which you should find on this forum somewhere.. try doing a search or two for dating concertinas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowright Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) When I first saw this thread, my guess was that the serial number was 38227 and, in fact, it is. I have serial numbers and descriptions for 2187 English-system Lachenal concertinas. The highest serial number for 2186 of them is No. 60498. The exception is No. 87733 (48 Keys, Wood Ends, Bone Buttons, and 5-fold bellows). That number of 87733 has been absolutely positively confirmed. My guess is that it was a mistaken stamp for 37733. My estimate for the year of manufacture of No. 38227 is 1900. Edited September 11, 2015 by Dowright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Long Les Posted September 12, 2015 Author Share Posted September 12, 2015 When I first saw this thread, my guess was that the serial number was 38227 and, in fact, it is. I have serial numbers and descriptions for 2187 English-system Lachenal concertinas. The highest serial number for 2186 of them is No. 60498. The exception is No. 87733 (48 Keys, Wood Ends, Bone Buttons, and 5-fold bellows). That number of 87733 has been absolutely positively confirmed. My guess is that it was a mistaken stamp for 37733. My estimate for the year of manufacture of No. 38227 is 1900. Thank you for this information. Very interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Ooooh, I would take that "Geoff Wooff's formula" with a very big dose of salt. He invented that back in the '70's... still it is perhaps a reasonably accurate guestimate for these instruments of the middle period. Yep, for English it's still pretty good. About 15 years ago I revisited it here, and only needed to change the earliest dates. But don't trust the other Wooff formulae for Anglos and Duets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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