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Ab/eb Concertinas...


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I think there is a mix up of terminology about how concertinas are named. I think that in Ireland a c/g would be called a "D" instrument, a c#/g# would be called a" Eb" instrument, a Bb/f would be called a "c" instrument and an a/e would be called a "B" instrument.....

 

Doug

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I think there is a mix up of terminology about how concertinas are named. I think that in Ireland a c/g would be called a "D" instrument, a c#/g# would be called a" Eb" instrument, a Bb/f would be called a "c" instrument and an a/e would be called a "B" instrument.....

 

That has been explained before in these Forums, but I don't think anyone in this discussion should be confused. After all, there's the significant difference between single-letter and double-letter designations. A C/G may be a "D" in that terminology, but it's neither a "G/D" nor a "D/A". Similarly, an A/E might be called a "B" instrument, but not an "E/B" nor a "B/F#". Or more to the point of this thread, an Ab/Eb might be called a "Bb" in that terminology, but not a "Bb/F".

 

Meanwhile, back to the original post, I think it's been made clear that at one time Ab/Eb anglos were not extremely rare, though hardly as common as C/G ones, but that more recently many of them were converted to G/D, which was previously rare. Nevertheless, there are still some vintage Ab/Eb instruments out there, and if you search for long enough, you should be able to find one. Some years ago I had one, and it was important to me that the new owner should keep the original tuning and not try to have it retuned to G/D.

 

Meanwhile, it's been pretty much the general advice to inquiries on these Forums that anglos in uncommon keys should not be retuned, to avoid making them even rarer than they've already become. And recently the demand for these anglos in "odd" keys has been increasing, so one is likely to be money ahead selling (e.g.) an Ab/Eb to someone who wants one in those keys and buying an existing -- or new -- G/D rather than retuning the Ab/Eb to G/D. People following this advice should have helped prevent further reduction of the supply.

 

So my suggestion to Roger (or to anyone else interested in getting an Ab/Eb or any other particular instrument) is: Contact the major dealers, and keep in touch if they don't have what you want right away. And of course, start a thread in the Buy & Sell forum here, to let everyone know you're looking. It might take you a while to find what you want, but it shouldn't take "forever".

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I think there is a mix up of terminology about how concertinas are named. I think that in Ireland a c/g would be called a "D" instrument, a c#/g# would be called a" Eb" instrument, a Bb/f would be called a "c" instrument and an a/e would be called a "B" instrument.....

 

Doug

Mystery of the two new Carrols solved... :D

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my understanding was that the thread concerned a-flat/e-flat concertinas. given that, i did not, and would not have had it in my head to, initiate discussion of either anybody's a/e concertina, or their b concertina.

 

but since it has come up, that makes both mr. hill and mr. Collins, who referred to their "B" concertinas in my presence. mr. hill didn't say he was calling it a "B" since it had a "B" drone. he just called it a "B" concertina. mr. hill also referred (with fond bliss) to tommy McCarthy's "B" concertina. i gotta say, in all my time around irish c/g concertina players who were teaching workshop about concertinas, lecturing about concertinas, performing on concertinas, or playing in seshes on concertinas, i never heard one refer to a c/g as a "d" concertina, though i certainly believe Doug. on the point.

Edited by ceemonster
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i gotta say, in all my time around irish c/g concertina players who were teaching workshop about concertinas, lecturing about concertinas, performing on concertinas, or playing in seshes on concertinas, i never heard one refer to a c/g as a "d" concertina, though i certainly believe Doug. on the point.

I don't know a thing about it except that it had been discussed resp. explained here at some point over the last years (though a quick search didn't bring it to light)...

Edited by blue eyed sailor
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Meanwhile, back to the original post, I think it's been made clear that at one time Ab/Eb anglos were not extremely rare, though hardly as common as C/G ones, but that more recently many of them were converted to G/D, which was previously rare. Nevertheless, there are still some vintage Ab/Eb instruments out there, and if you search for long enough, you should be able to find one. Some years ago I had one, and it was important to me that the new owner should keep the original tuning and not try to have it retuned to G/D.

 

Meanwhile, it's been pretty much the general advice to inquiries on these Forums that anglos in uncommon keys should not be retuned, to avoid making them even rarer than they've already become. And recently the demand for these anglos in "odd" keys has been increasing, so one is likely to be money ahead selling (e.g.) an Ab/Eb to someone who wants one in those keys and buying an existing -- or new -- G/D rather than retuning the Ab/Eb to G/D. People following this advice should have helped prevent further reduction of the supply.

 

So my suggestion to Roger (or to anyone else interested in getting an Ab/Eb or any other particular instrument) is: Contact the major dealers, and keep in touch if they don't have what you want right away. And of course, start a thread in the Buy & Sell forum here, to let everyone know you're looking. It might take you a while to find what you want, but it shouldn't take "forever".

 

 

One of the great things about this forum is that 'thread drift' allows one to pick up a lot of 'extra'

knowledge about ConcertinaWorld. I now know a lot more about key combinations and the different

(regionally-based?) conventions for naming them. Good!

 

Here, I have also picked up that sometimes, 'tinas are re-tuned to within an inch of their life! Just

on the grounds of cruelty to musical instruments, this was beginning to sound to me like a

questionable practice at best.

 

In future, wherever possible, I will be looking for instruments which can be verified as only having

been re-tuned from 'old' to 'new' pitch (I now know there are four flavours of 'old' tuning!). I quite

fancy an instrument in 'old' tuning in any case.

 

I have already decided that putting feelers out amongst the weel-kent dealers woud be a good

idea...

 

Thanks.

 

Roger

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I think there is a mix up of terminology about how concertinas are named. I think that in Ireland a c/g would be called a "D" instrument, a c#/g# would be called a" Eb" instrument, a Bb/f would be called a "c" instrument and an a/e would be called a "B" instrument.....

 

That has been explained before in these Forums, but I don't think anyone in this discussion should be confused. After all, there's the significant difference between single-letter and double-letter designations. A C/G may be a "D" in that terminology, but it's neither a "G/D" nor a "D/A". Similarly, an A/E might be called a "B" instrument, but not an "E/B" nor a "B/F#". Or more to the point of this thread, an Ab/Eb might be called a "Bb" in that terminology, but not a "Bb/F".

 

 

 

To go back to the Salvation Army tutor of 1888, it's interesting to see that Booth calls the SA anglo by the same relative terminology as modern Irish players, but of course using an entirely different logic. He says that playing in Ab is the same as playing in Bb on the cornet, so they call it a Bb in the tutor, "although it is really Ab concert pitch". The nomenclature in the chord diagrams that follow are therefore all a tone higher than their actual sounding pitches.

 

Adrian

 

PS. This is the only recording I've done so far with my AbEb, which as far as I can see is pretty untouched, having its original pitch of a-452Hz and an uneven temperament.

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I've never seen it discussed here, though it's not surprising that it has been, since all concertina bases do seem to get covered on cnet . . . I think it was when tim Collins was recording and playing with Brian McNamara that he told us he had a "B" concertina in the Dipper pipeline and said it was for playing with B pipes . Very surprised that this tidbit never came up in classes with him or Gearoid, (who never called his B-Fat/F a "C" concertina that I ever heard) since they are both excellent with these sort of factoids . It's interesting, because I would think the real old-style players who played their c/g "on the row" in C and F, would be thinking of it as a "C" box, but anyway . . . . . . . . . Noel played "The Drunken Sailor" on what he called his "B" and it sounded great . . .

Edited by ceemonster
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My understanding was that the German C/G 20b concertinas which seemed to have gotten so popular with the Irish in former times had sort of prompted the establishing of an across-the-rows style when taken up to play tunes in D (which would have to be either hexatonic or Dmix then) or even A (even more limited), then to be replaced (for that purpose, i.e. not transposing the tunes as mentioned in your post) by the newly developed 30b C/G Anglo-German concertina which has the accidentals for "true" Dmaj and Amaj...,

 

(about to be losing the thread...) and that this usage of C/G for playing in D was then reference point for treating concertinas in different tunings as transposing Instruments...

Edited by blue eyed sailor
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I have an Ab/Eb Lachenal. I keep asking the melodeons to capo up, but they never will!

 

A late friend of mine -- who played various squeezeboxes, but mainly English concertina -- used to learn fiddle tunes in "odd" keys like Eb and Ab (as well a the standard keys) in order to get back at the session fiddlers who would refuse to tune to his box. (This was back in the days when people actually used to tune to each other by ear, rather than by using little electronic gadgets and ignoring the sound.)

 

Now it's apparently become popular to have entire sessions in shifted keys, and some folks have multiple instruments for just that purpose. Funny thing is that I first heard of that with fiddlers tuning a half step sharp to get a "brighter" sound. From what I hear/read now, it's more popular to drop the pitch to get a "richer" or "mellower" sound.

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yes, there have been repeated discussions on the yellow site about "entire sessions in shifted keys" being used to allegedly be exclusive, or being used on the spot as self-defense when a session-wrecker gets into the mix . . . no idea if or to what extent this is true . .

 

at some point the annual pipers' tionol in my region became a "B" extravaganza. there is a concert each year with what for many years used to be a glorious sesh after, which at some point became, a glorious sesh if you had a "B" instrument or could tune to "B" . . . definitely "B" has been "in" the last few years in the piping world, and some piping-oriented concertina players have joined the party with, hrrrm, "B concertinas." there is a bit of faddishness about this stuff, since one remembers when "C" was the "in thing" for flat piping seshes and the "in" thing for one's second, flat set. then there is the relatively recent outbreak of B-Flat being "in," sparked by the Mick O'Brien/C O'R records . . .

 

i had to develop a taste for these flat keys, but now find them wonderful. i must say they shine a very alluring light on CBA and EC as free-reed instrument choices . . .

Edited by ceemonster
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