Any Difference Between English & 'anglo Chromatic' Concert

[Bald Reynard]

I've just bought a 20 button "Anglo Chromatic" concertina, which, from all the bumff seems to be the same as an English (ie unisonoric, playing the same note in and out). Is there a difference - if so, why are they labelled so ?

 

It is a Barcarole instrument - from the research I've done, that seem to be an East German company (well known in the Accordion world apparently), who imported into the UK in the 70's and 80's through Hohner. Hohner 'tidied' them up and improved them for the UK market. The concertina is being shipped, so I might know more when it arrives (it is in it's original box), but any information Members might have on this model, would be appreciated.

[JimLucas]

I've just bought a 20 button "Anglo Chromatic" concertina, which, from all the bumff seems to be the same as an English (ie unisonoric, playing the same note in and out). Is there a difference - if so, why are they labelled so ?

 

It is a Barcarole instrument - from the research I've done, that seem to be an East German company (well known in the Accordion world apparently), who imported into the UK in the 70's and 80's through Hohner. Hohner 'tidied' them up and improved them for the UK market. The concertina is being shipped, so I might know more when it arrives (it is in it's original box), but any information Members might have on this model, would be appreciated.

 

I'd wait to see what arrives. Your description seems very unlikely. Were there any pictures?

 

The term "anglo chromatic" should properly be used only to describe anglos which have more buttons than 20, the extra buttons providing the accidentals missing from the 20-button layout. (Where did you buy it, that "they" labelled it so?) Meanwhile, the English differs from the anglo in more than just having the same note on push and pull.

[Bald Reynard]

 

I've just bought a 20 button "Anglo Chromatic" concertina, which, from all the bumff seems to be the same as an English (ie unisonoric, playing the same note in and out). Is there a difference - if so, why are they labelled so ?

 

It is a Barcarole instrument - from the research I've done, that seem to be an East German company (well known in the Accordion world apparently), who imported into the UK in the 70's and 80's through Hohner. Hohner 'tidied' them up and improved them for the UK market. The concertina is being shipped, so I might know more when it arrives (it is in it's original box), but any information Members might have on this model, would be appreciated.

 

I'd wait to see what arrives. Your description seems very unlikely. Were there any pictures?

 

The term "anglo chromatic" should properly be used only to describe anglos which have more buttons than 20, the extra buttons providing the accidentals missing from the 20-button layout. (Where did you buy it, that "they" labelled it so?) Meanwhile, the English differs from the anglo in more than just having the same note on push and pull.

 

Thanks for the quick reply Jim.

 

I bought it (cheapish, so took a gamble) online at the weekend - there are / were pictures (and it is indeed a 20 button). It was described as an 'Anglo Chromatic' which I queried with the seller (as I thought that was a contradiction - I always understood an 'Anglo' to be a Diatonic). The seller responded that the box clearly says Anglo Chromatic and it does play the same note 'in and out'. I bought it on the basis of what was said - I was looking for an English.

 

I Googled the model and there was a reference to Barcarole producing some concertinas, "in the English style".

 

I expect it to be delivered in the next couple of days, so will let you know what the outcome is !

Edited August 15, 2015 by Bald Reynard

[Peter Laban]

 

Makes you wonder

[Bill N]

I found the listing on Ebay and it looks to me to be a bog-standard 20 button diatonic instrument (albeit in nice new-old-stock condition). If it plays as well as it looks you got a pretty good deal. Possibly the seller did a bit of "research" and became confused by the myriad types of similarly named concertina systems?

[Takayuki YAGI]

I saw the same listing and had the same opinion as Bill N. Typical 20-button diatonic concertina made by Scholar(my guess), badged Barcarole.

[gloscon]

I think the explanation is quite simple. The illustration is headed "Anglo Chromatic concertina" and does indeed show just that. However, it is clearly not a picture of a 20 key, diatonic, instrument. Counting the keys shows that.

 

So obviously nothing like an English layout. But many people produce enjoyable music on a 20 key diatonic. Stick with it! Could be a good starter instrument.

 

Regards Les

[Mikefule]

A 20 button with different notes in and out is an Anglo (or "Anglo-German" if you want to use the full term, which is a bit dated now. Each row is diatonic, like a mouth organ, so you get all the notes required for two major scales, a 5th apart. (For example, C and G.)

 

Add another row and it becomes an "Anglo-chromatic" because it has all or most of the notes to play a scale in several keys - but it is not fully chromatic.

 

Anglos have a strap that goes across the back of the hand. The rows of buttons are roughly parallel to the straps.

 

An English has a completely different layout and you get the same note, for any given button, whether you push or pull. An English is fully chromatic. Am English usually has a thumb loop for each hand, and a small metal rest/support for each little finger. The rows of buttons are roughly at right angles to what they would be on an Anglo.

 

The picture is of an Anglo-chromatic, but the box you have described is something else.

 

The two instruments are similar "at first glance" bit in reality are as different as a banjo and a guitar, or a clarinet and a trumpet.

[Wolf Molkentin]

This has been discussed repeatedly. AFAIR the consensus was that a 20b instrument should be referred to as a "German" concertina, no more, no less. The "Anglo" part comes with the non-continental adaption, adding a third row (thus making the instrument an "Anglo-German"), and every "Anglo" should be (partly) "chromatic" in this respect...

 

Best wishes - Wolf

[Mikefule]

My understanding was that a 2 row box with reeds on plates is a German, but a two row box with the same sort of construction and general appearance as an English (hexagonal, reeds in shoes, etc,) is Anglo German. It's a while since I read it, but that's how I understood Dan Worrall's books. The chromatic then comes in when it is taken beyond the 2 diatonic rows.

 

Either way, we only say "Anglo" now whether it is 20, 30 or more buttons, so it is academic.

[Stephen Chambers]

My understanding was that a 2 row box with reeds on plates is a German, but a two row box with the same sort of construction and general appearance as an English (hexagonal, reeds in shoes, etc,) is Anglo German.

 

That's been my understanding since I first started to become interested in concertinas 45 years ago, and German concertinas (like Bald Reynard's "Barcarole") were still described as such in those days.

 

The chromatic then comes in when it is taken beyond the 2 diatonic rows.

 

When the Anglo-German is taken beyond the 2 diatonic rows, by the addition of semitones, yes. But not when the German is taken beyond the 2 diatonic rows, by the addition of a row in a third key...

 

Either way, we only say "Anglo" now whether it is 20, 30 or more buttons, so it is academic.

 

That seems to be the way it's gone, but the old terminology was so much more specific.

[Wolf Molkentin]

 

My understanding was that a 2 row box with reeds on plates is a German, but a two row box with the same sort of construction and general appearance as an English (hexagonal, reeds in shoes, etc,) is Anglo German.

That's been my understanding since I first started to become interested in concertinas 45 years ago, and German concertinas (like Bald Reynard's "Barcarole") were still described as such in those days.

 

O.k., I stand corrected then - better late then never...

[Mikefule]

 

 

When the Anglo-German is taken beyond the 2 diatonic rows, by the addition of semitones, yes. But not when the German is taken beyond the 2 diatonic rows, by the addition of a row in a third key...

 

 

I must admit I hadn't thought of that particular variation on a theme. Yes, the "chromatic" needs a selection of notes allowing a range of accidentals, rather than just a third diatonic row.

 

However, if you had a 12 row Anglo... that would be fully chromatic... eek!

Edited August 14, 2015 by Mikefule

[Wolf Molkentin]

However, if you had a 12 row Anglo... that would be fully chromatic... eek!

We've discussed that point recently on melnet...

Edited August 14, 2015 by blue eyed sailor

[Dana Johnson]

I remember the concertina Bob Tedrow played. It was a diatonic C/G, he made for himself, but the G row was the lower pitched center row. ( I guess for our usual convention it would be a G/C ) I couldn't find my way around on it. He made the "normal" Kind for everyone else, but he said he'd copied a German one set up that way and learned on it. Clearly there are some variations out there. A two row B/C accordion is chromatic ( as are all those other semitones combinations like C#D etc. you don't need three rows to be chromatic even if you are diatonic. You just need to chose your key combinations. No clue what this instrument is like though.

Dana

[Bald Reynard]

 

 

I've just bought a 20 button "Anglo Chromatic" concertina, which, from all the bumff seems to be the same as an English (ie unisonoric, playing the same note in and out). Is there a difference - if so, why are they labelled so ?

 

It is a Barcarole instrument - from the research I've done, that seem to be an East German company (well known in the Accordion world apparently), who imported into the UK in the 70's and 80's through Hohner. Hohner 'tidied' them up and improved them for the UK market. The concertina is being shipped, so I might know more when it arrives (it is in it's original box), but any information Members might have on this model, would be appreciated.

 

I bought it (cheapish, so took a gamble) online at the weekend - there are / were pictures (and it is indeed a 20 button). It was described as an 'Anglo Chromatic' which I queried with the seller (as I thought that was a contradiction - I always understood an 'Anglo' to be a Diatonic). The seller responded that the box clearly says Anglo Chromatic and it does play the same note 'in and out'. I bought it on the basis of what was said - I was looking for an English.

 

I Googled the model and there was a reference to Barcarole producing some concertinas, "in the English style".

 

I expect it to be delivered in the next couple of days, so will let you know what the outcome is !

 

It has arrived and as most on here have said, it is a 20 button Anglo. I'm a bit disappointed as I did want an English, but I'll have a think as to whether to keep it, or sell on. It was a reasonable price, but I could put any money I get towards an English.

 

Comparing it to a picture of a Hohner D40, it looks exactly the same. I've done a bit more research since and there was a post somewhere (I can't remember where) that Hohner imported them into the UK from Germany in the 80's, many were branded Barcarole. Apparently Hohner used to 'tidy them up' in the UK, before selling (whatever that involved ?!). Perhaps they branded some of these imports as Hohner's ?

 

Anyway thanks for all your help and advice, guys.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Bald Reynard

[Mikefule]

Before I had ever played a concertina, I had established that the English was the one for me. Then I borrowed one and couldn't get on with it. Then I borrowed an Anglo. Then I knew I needed a 30 button Anglo, minimum. Long and short of it is I had a lot fun playing today on my 20 button Anglo. (I also have a 30 and a 30-something (I've never counted them). They made about 350,000 Lachenal 20 button Anglos, and there's a lot you can play on one. Don't dismiss it out of hand. You may find it unexpectedly inspiring.

[Dana Johnson]

Before I had ever played a concertina, I had established that the English was the one for me. Then I borrowed one and couldn't get on with it. Then I borrowed an Anglo. Then I knew I needed a 30 button Anglo, minimum. Long and short of it is I had a lot fun playing today on my 20 button Anglo. (I also have a 30 and a 30-something (I've never counted them). They made about 350,000 Lachenal 20 button Anglos, and there's a lot you can play on one. Don't dismiss it out of hand. You may find it unexpectedly inspiring.

I started on a tenor English and despite the "logic" of it, I never learned more than 7 tunes. I got a Hayden Duet and played that a whole lot more, but once over the push / pull hump, I ditched it for the Anglo which I found gave me so much more expressive ability, Dave Townsend, not withstanding. The kind of music you like to play counts for a lot. Since I came to the Anglo Concertina from the violin, which I still play, I feel much more kinship between the two. If I had to go back to anything, it would be the duet, not the English.

Dana