Roger Hare Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I've tried to find the answer to this question on the internet. I don't know thatI've had that much success, so here goes:I don't know how much musical theory I should bother with as a concertina(and soon to be melodeon) player, but:Consider the scale of natural notes - the scale of C:C-D-E-F-G-A-B-CThehe intervals between notes are tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, tone, tone,semitone. These are the intervals between the notes in all other conventionalscales, so in the scale of G, we have:G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-Gwith the F being sharpened to preserve the pattern of intervals between notes.To a degree, this sounds 'the same' when played, as the scale of C - becausethe intervals between the notes are the same: tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, tone,tone, semi-tone.Now, return to the scale of natural notes (key of C) and play them in this order:D-E-F-G-A-B-C-DThe intervals are now tone, semi-tone, tone, tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, and toears accustomed to the scale played in the usual order it sounds a little odd.This is a modal scale - Dorian mode, in fact.The natural scale C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C played in the usual order is known as Ionian mode.So, we have two scales using the natural notes:C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C (Ionian mode)D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D (Dorian mode)The first scale is C (Ionian).My question is:Is the second example C (Dorian) because it uses the notes of the natural scale? or,Is the second example D (Dorian) because it starts and finishes on D? with a follow-up question,Does it matter?Sorry if this is 'obvious' or is a non-question, but it's bugging me...FWIW, I've 'known' about modal scales ever since I read A.L.Lloyds 'Folk Song In England' whenit was first published, but it never mattered till now...Thank you.Roger.[cross-posted to melodeon.net and concertina.net] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Hi Roger, any of the six (or seven) modes uses a natural scale, IOW: modes are the natural scales existing. Which mode is a matter of where the semitone-steps are located (with non-variable distances inbetween, two whole steps and then three of or the other way round, every single one executable with just white keys on a piano keyboard, as long as we are talking about the basic natural modes). The Ionian mode has semitone-steps from 3 to 4 and from 7 to 8, the Dorian from 2 to 3 and from 6 to 7, the Mixolydian (my very favourite mode!) from 3 to 4 and from 6 to 7, a.s.f. Of course you can transpose those modes ad lib. using sharps or flats as required then... Feel free to ask again! Best wishes - Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 To answer the question more clearly, the scale that goes from D to D on white notes is D dorian. C dorian would have two flats (B and E--the A would be natural). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo-Irishman Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Like David said, D to D is the scale of D (major, Dorian, or whatever, depending on where the semitone intervals are). And yes, it does matter - at least when you're communicating with other instrumentalists, particularly when choosing what key to play the next piece in. Some instrumentalists are limited in the notes they can play - for example, tin whistle players. They have only the notes of the major scale that their whistle is in, plus one flat. Others are limited in the chords they can (easily) play - for example, guitarists or Anglo concertinists. They have the tonic, subdominant, dominant 7th and parallel minor chords for a limited number of keys. So it's always important to define the key in terms of home note (tonic) and mode. Someone with a harmonica in C, for instance, will be able to play tunes in C major, but not in C minor, nor in D major. But he will be able to play in D Dorian or G Mixolydian or A minor. The guitarist or duet concertinist see it differently. To accompany the C tin whistler, they'll need the chords for C major: C, F, G7, Am, Em, Dm; or the chords for D Dorian: Dm, C; or for G Mixolydian: G, C, F; or for A minor: Am, Dm, E(7). For diatonic, single-line-melody instruments like tin whistles, the key signature is really all that matters for playability. If it's got no sharps or flats, you can play it on a C whistle, no matter what mode the tune is in. For harmony instruments, the different distribution of major and minor intervals in the triads is what gives each mode its own feel. The only musicians who can handle different modes without theory are singers. They sing Dorian songs the same way as Ionian ones - by simply repeating what they've heard. For instance, I had been singing "The Ballynure Ballad" - a very popular Irish comic song - for literally decades, before I realised (through trying to play it on the tin whistle) that it was in Dorian mode. Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Hardy Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 ... C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C (Ionian mode) D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D (Dorian mode) The first scale is C (Ionian). My question is: Is the second example C (Dorian) because it uses the notes of the natural scale? or, Is the second example D (Dorian) because it starts and finishes on D? with a follow-up question, It's D Dorian, because it finishes on a D (where it starts is less important) and uses no sharps or flats. For a tune, the thing that matters is the home note of the tune - which usually the last note (else the tune sounds 'unfinished'). It is strange that we can have several tunes which all use the same notes, but the key and mode change according to which is the home note - however, that is the way our brains work. I did a short handout when giving a talk on this subject to the Chiltinas a couple of years ago - see http://www.pghardy.net/concertina/tunebooks/pgh_theory.pdf. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linrose Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 This guy explains it fairly well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGTT_VK2kVY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laitch Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Here's a table that I used to familiarize myself with the most common Irish dance tune scales. I found this years ago at Slowplayers.org. Edited July 2, 2015 by Laitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 This guy explains it fairly well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGTT_VK2kVY Wow! I was at that concert when I was a kid in 1966. I have very clear memories of bits of it, but didn't really learn how modes worked until years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hare Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 ... C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C (Ionian mode) D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D (Dorian mode) The first scale is C (Ionian). My question is: Is the second example C (Dorian) because it uses the notes of the natural scale? or, Is the second example D (Dorian) because it starts and finishes on D? with a follow-up question, It's D Dorian, because it finishes on a D (where it starts is less important) and uses no sharps or flats. For a tune, the thing that matters is the home note of the tune - which usually the last note (else the tune sounds 'unfinished'). It is strange that we can have several tunes which all use the same notes, but the key and mode change according to which is the home note - however, that is the way our brains work. I did a short handout when giving a talk on this subject to the Chiltinas a couple of years ago - see http://www.pghardy.net/concertina/tunebooks/pgh_theory.pdf. Thanks for that! I'm now starting to get my act together as far as these modes are concerned, even playing through the different forms to get a 'feel' for them. The PDF file of your handout is very helpfu!. I'm now carrying a copy around with me on my tablet along with all my other concertina-related stuff. Thanks again. Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wild Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I did a short handout when giving a talk on this subject to the Chiltinas a couple of years ago - see http://www.pghardy.net/concertina/tunebooks/pgh_theory.pdf. Thank you Paul. I have downloaded a copy of these pages. I have bookmarked the Bernstein video clips for future reference. - John Wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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