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4to5to6

Sizes And Weights Of Different Model Concertinas

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I've been searching for an hour comparing the Aeola English system Tenor and Tenor-Treble (model 17 and model 19)

 

Which is right for me? I have the note range figured out but can't find anything specific on the size and weight comparison.

 

Can soneone give me the size (across the flats) of both a 48K treble and a 56K tenor-treble Aeola please? Maybe a Model 22 too as well please.

 

Actually... If this hasn't been done before, let's compile a chart comparing the different models. If it has been done please point me in the right direction or PM me for my email to send it to me please.

 

I am mostly interested in Wheatstone but why not open it up. Please let's stick to English system though.

 

Every few days I can put the info into a summary post. What do you say? Not the primary concern when choosing an instrument of course but it does come into it. I think this could be some very useful data compiled into one place. Please help :)

 

Type (ex: tenor, tenor-treble, tenor etc,)

Model # (ex: Model 17 for 48K treble Aeola etc.)

Serial # (optional but especially useful if no model #)

Number of keys

Note range

Features (ex: wrist straps, thumb strap to note position, etc.)

Type of ends (ex: ebony, raised ebony, metal, etc.)

Number of bellow folds

Size (distance across the flats)

Weight

 

Thanks.

Edited by 4to5to6

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I wouldn't take it for granted that specimen of the same model necessarily share characteristics like weight or even dimensions. Therefore a chart might rather basically list individual instruments with of course the model mentioned if known IMO.

 

What do you say? Best wishes - Wolf

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Thanks Wolf. I never considered that the same model could have different dimensions.. This does conplicate things a bit.

 

Okay, good idea. Let's keep it to individual Wheatstone English instruments for a start. How about:

 

1. *** Serial number (then I can look up the model etc.)

2. Date of manufacture (if known)

3. Model # (if known, otherwise I can look it up)

4. *** Number of keys

5. *** Type (Aeola, treble, tenor-treble, extended treble, etc)

6. *** size across the flats

7. weight (if known)

*** please include if at all possible, if not fill in what you can.)

 

Data might not be in ledgers for some instruments but let's see how this works out.

 

This could be interesting.

It shouldn't take too many people chipping in to quickly see some patterns developing.

 

What do you think? Did I forget anything? Add too much?

 

John

Edited by 4to5to6

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My box is no 26484, manufactured on June 30, 1914, It's a Tenor-Treble Aeola, 56 keys, model 19. It has a range of four octaves up from the C below middle C. 6-fold bellows; wrist straps; 7and a quarter inches across the flats, and a weight of 3lbs 13oz.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Tom

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I seem to remember that there was a similar attempt to collect weight and maybe size data several years ago. MIght be worth searching for it. (I wouldn't use the Forum's search facility. It seems to miss things. Try Google or the like with a restriction to the concertina.net domain.)

 

Also, a couple of times it's been suggested that a central database be set up to collect all the details of folks' instruments, at least in part for insurance purposes. But as I recall, the majority feeling (of those few expressed) was that the advantage of being able to identify one's instrument if it was stolen was overshadowed by the danger of hacker thieves being able to find where there were instruments worth stealing.

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Thanks Jim,

I will do the search for past data as you suggest. When I can collect size/weight/type etc. for even 10 or 20 instruments I will start compiling the data. Location and owner of the instruments will not be included in the list.

 

John

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I am curious as to why you are so interested in weight, especially if you are intending to restrict yourself to Aeolas ( I know you said why not open it up ). I'd be wanting to know the year of production and how that stood in the quality production period category. I'm not very familiar with Wheatstone's English system concertinas, though I have seen quite a few. Aeolas are not all created equal ( neither are their Linota Anglos ). I don't know if they produced aluminum shoed reeds for their Aeolas during production, but for the 112 reeds of a tenor treble, the weigh difference will be noticeable. Metal vs wood ends? Weight difference, but also tone difference. If you have weak wrists, weight might be a deciding factor, but then you might want to stick with a 48 treble. A lower model Wheatstone from a good year might be better than a higher class Aeola from their later years. ( and cost less ). Vastly better if you can actually try out the instruments. I know that isn't easy in a lot of places, but even buying on approval is better than going with a name.

Dana

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I'm on the road now, but when I get home at the end of the week I can dig up Paul's old 'weights' article on the server and post a link here.

 

Ken

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Thanks Ken. That would be great!

Edited by 4to5to6

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I am (today) personally interested in models:

 

No. 17. treble Aeola

No. 19. tenor-treble Aeola

 

No. 22. treble metal end

No. 11a. tenor-treble metal end

 

No. 6. treble raised ebony end

No. 11. tenor-treble raised ebony end

 

but don't want to restrict it to just these as think it would nice to compile a complete list (as possible).

 

As a side, I am also trying to find out what the range of a model 12E is. It's a large Aeola with maybe 64 keys but that's all I know, maybe a tenor-baritone but that's a guess.

Edited by 4to5to6

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as a practical matter, the variable that may be more operative in your choices than any of those your have cited here is the relative availability/unavailability of tenors and TTs. the simple fact is that tenor 48s (my favorite concertina config) are very rare and scarce. nowadays, aeola TTs don't grow on trees either, but they are way more plentiful than tenor 48s. due to this, aeola Tenor 48s can be expensive. very, very expensive. you can confirm this with mr. algar of barleycorn concertinas, I believe.

 

morse concertinas makes a high-grade Tenor 45 "hybrid" with accordion reeds and offers a hand-type reed upgrade option, wood ends only. AC Norman also makes a Tenor 45, also wood ends only (perhaps he would do a metal ends as an extra, not sure). Juergen Suttner offers a concertina-reeded Tenor model, as does Wim Wakker. I suspect John Connor in the UK would make one. Unclear about whether Mr. Crabb is making or not making these days. There does happen to be a Wheatstone Tenor 36 on the 'bay just now, do not think it is an aeola.

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Thanks, I agree, tenors are not on my list because of rarity.

 

I've only had one response so far. Thanks again Tom.

 

Please! Can anyone else share a few details about a Wheatstone they have access to?

 

1. *** Serial number (then I can look up the model etc.)

2. Date of manufacture (if known)

3. Model # (if known, otherwise I can look it up)

4. *** Number of keys

5. *** Type (Aeola, treble, tenor-treble, extended treble, etc)

6. *** size across the flats

7. weight (if known)

 

*** please include if at all possible, if not fill in what you can.)

 

Data might not be in ledgers for some instruments but let's see how this works out.

 

I am specifically searching for info on models:

 

No. 17. treble Aeola

No. 19. tenor-treble Aeola

 

No. 22. treble metal end

No. 11a. tenor-treble metal end

 

No. 6. treble raised ebony end

No. 11. tenor-treble raised ebony end

 

but please don't restrict it to just these as I think it would nice to compile as complete s list (as possible).

 

As a side, I am also trying to find out what the range of a model 12E is. It's a large Aeola with maybe 64 keys but that's all I know, maybe a tenor-baritone but that's a guess.

Edited by 4to5to6, Today, 09:58 PM.

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I've only had one response so far. Thanks again Tom.

 

Please! Can anyone else share a few details about a Wheatstone they have access to?

In order to avoid a possible misunderstanding, my one and only concertina is a Lachenal Treble ("Excelsior"), apparently not on your list... :)

 

Good luck with finding your Instrument! Best wishes - Wolf

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Exact weights of models can vary due to such things as 'original condition' versus 'restored with after market Bellows' so some extra details should be taken into consideration.

 

So here are my current Wheatstones;

 

Model 14: number 31518 (1927) Baritone/Treble Aeola.

 

Original condition; 7 fold bellows and wrist straps .

 

Weight; 1969 grams

 

Size; 8" across flats ( Wooden ends).

 

 

Model 22; number 22695 ( Date estimate 1898) 48 Treble ( no air key).

 

Original condition... new 6 fold Bellows , no wrist straps.

 

Weight; 1318 grams.

 

Size; 6 1/4" across flats Hexagon ( metal ends).

 

 

Model 4a. number 27264 ( 1916) 48 Treble.

 

Earlier restoration with replacement 6 fold Bellows. no wriststraps.

 

Weight; 1221 grams.

 

Size; 6 1/4" Hex. wooden ends.

 

 

 

 

Some of us , who have been around these particular squeezeboxes for a long time, have period preferences and, as Dana says, they are not all created equal.

 

 

 

I don't know what you want but I hope you find it!

 

Geoff.

Edited by Geoff Wooff

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Thanks Geoff. This really helps. Awesome!!!

 

A couple of questions...

 

Please describe what your model 4a. (27264) is better? Is this an Anglo? I can't find reference to it in the price lists.

 

Also, how would you describe playing your Model 14. 56K Baritone-Treble? Do find it heavey at all? This will really help me.

 

Let me compliment you on this instrument as even by the toughest standards... it is right in the middle of the peak 31xxx Wheatstone golden era: 30xxx to 32xxx (1924 to 1933). I would really value your description of it's tone and response.

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In order to avoid a possible misunderstanding, my one and only concertina is a Lachenal Treble ("Excelsior"), apparently not on your list... :)Good luck with finding your Instrument! Best wishes - Wolf

Hi wolf, the only concertina I have in my possession right now is a RE BB MR circa 1900 Lachenal (6-1/4" AF, 2lbs, 9oz??? from memory). It fails the hang test in 6 secounds, needs pads (leaks ands action is jamming), springs (3 replaced with safety pins), valves and felts (pop and flapping sounds). And it is horribly out of tune and at old high pitch. It was unbelievable when I got it with 11 reeds fouled, loose pads rolling around inside, etc. It took me 6 hours to get it as good as it is in playable but very poor condition.

 

I started with a very nice 48K Wheastone crane duet with raised ebony ends a few years ago. I learnt a few songs on it but it never stuck. I sold it a while ago but had sellers remorse kicked in so I went on eBay and 6 hours later I had won the auction for what I have now. It was meant to be... I can't believe how much fun I am having with this instrument even with a few weak reeds, leaky bellows and jamming action. I'm convinced the English system concertina is a perfect match for me and so I'm saving up for a really good instrument. I want to buy one more instrument that will last me for life.

 

It's been a tough choice and I don't want to keep promising restorers I will take their instruments and the back out. There are so many variables: Treble, Tenor, Baritone, extended treble, tenor-treble, baritone treble, 48K tenor, 48, 56, 60, 64 keys!!! Availability? Size? Weight? Metal ends, ebony ends, raised ends? Exotic woods?

 

Then there's the whole thing of the Wheatstone Golden Age which "when" seems to be controversial (probably 29xxx to 32xxx (1920 - 1930) with 31xxx being the peak).

 

And then to top it off, the £ to CAD$ exchange rate (1.94 ouch) and £40 to 60 shipping plus 12% taxes to get it into Canada.

 

Again, I want to buy one more instrument; the one that will last me for life. I started this thread as I need more info. It's been really tough to focus in what to look for with limited information of features, etc.

 

I though I had found the perfect instrument: untouched, unrestored, pristine 48K 1920 Aeola that I can get fully restored and into my hands for maybe £3000 and best, not have to pay for it until it is done in December. Still, that's the price of a decent used car in Canada so not a small decision to make

 

Unfortunately, I am now thinking that I made a mistake to put it on hold as I am really into baroque and renaissance music and am constantly rearranging notes due to a lack of a few low notes.

Current tune I'm working on is Rat in the Bed by Danny Chapman

https: m.youtube.com/watch?v=b1VW2HEZzbs

http: www.rowlhouse.co.uk/main.htm

Danny uses a tenor-treble.

 

I may be wrong but it seems that the treble can be compared to a violin and tenor-treble a viola. I was under the wrong impression that a tenor-treble is huge (got it confused with a baritone-treble) and so needed more information so started this thread.

 

I haven't received enough info yet for it to be conclusive but it looks like a treble Aeola model 17 is 6-3/8, (don't know the weight) and a TT is 7-1/4 AF and about 3lbs, 13oz so not a really big difference.

 

I am struggling with the current prices of the Wheatstone Aeola and so is it really worth it with my limited funds. As much as I would love a 31xxx Boyd model 19 TT Aeola or even one with amboyna ends (sorry, I'm day dreaming here), maybe I should get a 6 sided model 11a (56K TT metal ends) or a model 11 (as above but raised ebony ends) instead. Is it better to look for the lowest priced beat up abused Aeola I can find and really afford or spend the same and get the best model 11 I can find? Is a model 17 Aeola really a model 22 dressed up in it's Sunday best?

 

I am certainly open to a really nice Lachenal as well like you have. But again is an Edeophone really a New Model just all dressed up? I've read through the Lachenal price lists as well but I can't even figure out where my own BB RE SR circa 1900 fits in.

 

Excelsiors are very popular. I found your description of your instrument:

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14590

 

Sounds like a very nice concertina! Cross walls in the reed chambers? Dome top versus flat top buttons, silver, glass, nickel, buttons.., more to contemplate!

 

I should maybe add "button type" to the list (glass, silver / domed, flat, etc). Problem is that most likely the butyon type wasn't consistent even thought same model number as these were all semi-custom built instruments.

 

I just wish Chris Algar and a few other collects would get together and write that long waited for book covering all this. I would be first in line to get a copy.

 

John

Edited by 4to5to6

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Thanks Geoff. This really helps. Awesome!!!

 

A couple of questions...

 

Please describe what your model 4a. (27264) is better? Is this an Anglo? I can't find reference to it in the price lists.

 

Also, how would you describe playing your Model 14. 56K Baritone-Treble? Do find it heavey at all? This will really help me.

 

Let me compliment you on this instrument as even by the toughest standards... it is right in the middle of the peak 31xxx Wheatstone golden era: 30xxx to 32xxx (1924 to 1933). I would really value your description of it's tone and response.

Described in the ledgers as "Black, Dull, Flat" Model 4a 27264 has Flat Black wooden ends which might have originally been a 'matt' or non shiny surface. There are other differences which might be the reason for the 4a designation; it has mahogany frames and soundboard (pallet board) and a Flat Reed pan of the usual Sycamore or Maple. 'Flat' in the ledger description possibly could relate to this flat reedpan, which was a feature going out of fashion by 1916.

I will attempt to put some thoughts into words about this instrument and the Model 14 tomorrow as it is my bed time.

 

Geoff.

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