nicx66 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 New Member here. i just purchased my first concertina and brought it in for repairs. it is a 30 button c/g anglo, unknown english made, 5 fold bellows, brass reeds in a radial reed pan, lachenal-type action. built 1901. the technician informed me that the instrument is, on average, 70 cents sharp and to get it back to c/g, he would have to remove more material from the reeds than he is comfortable with. i know very little about theory, however i asked if it was possible to tune up to c#/g#, so as not to be somewhere in between and he said that he could do that comfortably and keep it at A=440. I am curious as to any problems this could pose. any thoughts or input would be welcomed. my first instrument is a penny whistle and i have a c# whistle. my primary whistle (high d) sounds the c sharp with all holes open. if anyone is interested in pictures, i posted them in another forum, concertina history, titled Tidder Concertinas, Any One Know Anything About Tidders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradewinds Ted Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) I'm certainly not an expert, but if the purpose for tuning to c#/g# in A440 is to be able to play with other instruments, you may find you are disappointed. If you are interested in traditional music, much of that is in C,G,D or A, and the associated minors and related modal keys. While it is technically possible to play all the notes of any key on the 30 button anglo, it is much easier to do so in the home keys and closely associated keys, and c#/g# are pretty far from any of these. Of course if you are playing with a guitar or other fretted string accompaniment, they could simply capo up one fret further than usual and play along. (or retune) If you will be playing alone anyway as result of the odd keys, or asking others to retune, then you may as well leave the instrument in the old pitch, and just have it adjusted to bring it into tune with itself. The guitar etc. couldn't simply capo up, but could retune to match you. It is also worth checking whether this instrument is in something other than equal temperament tuning, and may actually be in tune with itself already. Just or mean tone tunings can have a lovely sound, particularly on chords within the home keys, and may be worth preserving. Of course, do what you decide will give you the most opportunity to enjoy playing! Edited March 24, 2015 by Tradewinds Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham S Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I guess that's the old "philharmonic pitch" of A = 453 (or thereabouts!)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Tuning it up to C#/G# would be usefull if you wanted to play Irish Trad Music at Eb sessions...( the whole box being then a semitone sharp) but Eb sessions are rare and probably too loud for a Brass reeded Lachenal type Anglo. I also think that raising the pitch of brass reeds could be equally as damaging as lowering them... I would be inclined to leave it where it is. 70 cents is very sharp... I make that A.458hz....! Edited March 24, 2015 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicx66 Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 thank you for all the thoughts. my goals with this instrument are to (A) learn how to play it and when i get up to speed ( play it with my band, which is: me-vox, whistles a-mandolin, octave mandolin, guitar, tenor banjo, vox b- bodhran, accordion j- banjo as best i can tell, the accordion is the only instrument that might be difficult to sync up with @ c#/g#, as the strings could capo. so i would only play on songs where b is playing bodhran. the difficulty with leaving it 70 cents sharp is that a and j would have to tune to the concertina, then capo? and i would have to make a penny whistle 70 cents sharp of D. another question i had was "will i still be able to learn tunes from tune books, tabs, and fingering charts?" ( i can't read music) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I'm not sure you'll ge a penny whistle in D# either, and learning tunes from books asf. won't depend on the pitch, you'd be playing a transposing instrument in any event then... Unless the strings can't be tuned 70 cents sharp without doint harm to the instrument a + j wouldn't necessarily have to capo, just tune to the sharp concertina, wouldn't they? Best wishes - Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicx66 Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) i actually made a whistle (one of my very first ones) that i designed to be an e whistle, however it ended up somewhere between e and eb. it would be truly ironic if it was in perfect pitch with the 70 cents sharp concertina, as i imagined the whistle was only in tune with itself. haha. Unless the strings can't be tuned 70 cents sharp without doint harm to the instrument a + j wouldn't necessarily have to capo, just tune to the sharp concertina, wouldn't they? in regards to the band, they could tune to the concertina, but it would mean more tuning (which is already pretty abundant). a switches his octave mandolin to bouzouki tuning for songs in e minor. it could definitely be done though. nice thing about a penny whistle, $3 in material Edited March 25, 2015 by nicx66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I'm not sure you'll ge a penny whistle in D# either.... I haven't seen whistles marked D#, but I do have a few in Eb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Johnson Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) By all means leave the concertina as is, except for tuning it to itself. You can learn to play on it just fine, and by the time you are really ready go use it in your band, you'd be better off buying an instrument in modern pitch. I agree with Geoff Woof regarding brass reeds. They are likely old enough as is. A steel reed's higher stiffness and lower density make it less sensitive to the dimensional changes major tuning can produce. Just remember, these reeds were the right size to begin with. Changing them by nearly a semitone will weaken them and reduce their lifespan. My experience with brass reeds is that the high reeds in something like a C/G are both very small and thin at the tip. It won't take much to raise the pitch 30 cents on the high reeds, but you could easily ruin one in the process. Dana Edited March 25, 2015 by Dana Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Could there be someone here on concertina.net who wouldn't mind having a concertina in nonstandard pitch -- e.g., for solo song accompaniment -- and would offer to trade an instrument in concert pitch for yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I'm not sure you'll ge a penny whistle in D# either.... I haven't seen whistles marked D#, but I do have a few in Eb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicx66 Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 (edited) I received my concertina back today from the button box, where i had the repairs/tuning done and it plays beautifully. After discussing the matter with the technician, i decided to have him tune the instrument to c#/g#, as he was confident that he could do it and it will make playing with my band a bit easier. also, my Eb whistle and C# whistle are in tune with the concertina (for recording). I certainly appreciate all of the comments/advice and suggestions, even the suggestions that i did not follow, for they allowed me to bring said concerns to the technician for discussion. i very much look forward to learning this instrument and if it brings me even 1/10 of the joy that learning the whistle did, i am in good shape. I also now know where i will buy a new instrument should i ever feel the need for one, as one of the commenters makes beautiful, traditionally reeded yet innovative instruments (kensington) . Thanks for keeping it positive everybody! nick Edited April 11, 2015 by nicx66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicx66 Posted May 24, 2015 Author Share Posted May 24, 2015 so far, i have been mostly practicing scales and a couple of tunes, banish misfortune in Eb and kesh jig/ paddy public enemy #1 in C# to keep things interesting. the scales i have figured out so far are C#, G#, Eb, Bb, and F nat. Interestingly enough, the C# whistle i bought has turned out to be the least useful as only one of the major keys matches up to its respective scale on the concertina, whereas with the Eb, Bb, and F nat whistles, both major keys match up to their respective scales on the concertina. Eb plays in Eb and G#, Bb plays in Bb and Eb, and F nat plays in F nat and Bb. By happy accident i had picked up those whistles before knowing i would be having the concertina tuned up. anyway, i was curious if i was missing anything here. mainly i was curious as to any other scales i can play on C#/G# 30 button concertina (wheatstone layout). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Laban Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) i was curious if i was missing anything here.You probably are. There's the whole issue of playing 'on the row' and 'across the row'. Modern (Irish) concertina playing uses the 'across the row' approach quite a bit, playing in D and G (plus related minors and the odd A etc) on a C/G concertina for example. Along those lines you'll sometimes find a C/G concertina pitched a semi tone sharp referred to as an Eflat concertina rather than a C#/G# one. Edited May 25, 2015 by Peter Laban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicx66 Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 for the record, this tuning is great for playing along with one of my favorite bands, godspeed you! black emperor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Campin Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 C# is a fairly common basic pitch for Indian classical music. Good luck trying to play that on an anglo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolm clapp Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) C# is a fairly common basic pitch for Indian classical music. True. I have detuned a number of Indian harmoniums for owners who want to play "western" music. (edited to clarify that I don't specifically mean "country and western" ) Edited December 19, 2015 by malcolm clapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicx66 Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 https://ia802609.us.archive.org/5/items/gybe2003-05-14.shnf/gybe2003-05-14d1t01.mp3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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