david robertson Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I have just acquired a big (69k) Maccann Aeola, and looking at the action, I am slightly puzzled. Two pairs of levers on the right hand cross over, and I'm damned if I can see why. The adjacent reed chambers concerned are of a more or less similar size, so it looks like the reeds could easily be swapped over (given a slight re-positioning of the chamber reducers), thus making the crossovers unnecessary. Now I'm pretty sure Mr Wheatstone knew what he was doing, so what am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAc Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) . Edited March 4, 2016 by RAc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I don't see it either, unless it's to do with the ratio of distances between key axis, fulcrum axis and pad axis, but it's a bit tenuous Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcoover Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Maybe the reeds got mis-positioned on the reed pan and rather than redo the pan they just adjusted the levers? Or maybe they just had some bent levers lying around on the workbench they needed to put somewhere... I would think one would hit the other being that close! Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Now I'm pretty sure Mr Wheatstone knew what he was doing, so what am I missing? Charles W. himself was probably long dead at the time that particular instrument was made. (I don't see a serial number, but in addition to being 8-sided, it has aluminum reed frames.) As for the reason(s) for the crossovers... beats me! I agree that both look totally unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Franch Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I'm imagining people playing away for decades on this instrument, unaware of the convoluted structure working away below the fretwork. Not that most of us think about this when we play or less convoluted but still complex instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) I have a Baritone EC which has crossover levers in two positions on each side somewhat like those of this MacCann. I will take a closer look at the Baritone ( a New Model Lachenal with Rivetted Action) and see if I might come up with a reason for this strategy. This might well have something to do with very long levers and fulcrum positioning, I had some difficulty obtaining enough 'pad lift' on the 'over lever' notes because the button depth travel had been restricted with extra Felt washers to stop the upper lever from pressing on the lower... PS;correction the Lachenal only has three crossovers, two on the left and one on the right side.. food for comparison perhaps? I'll try to post pictures. Edited March 5, 2015 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Crabb Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Sometimes what may seem illogical in concertina design is, in fact, done for a very good reason and is the result of much research carried out during development to produce an instrument with the best reed performance. Because of this, although it may seem frustrating, it is sometimes best to just accept what has been done. I could provide the reason for the existence of crossed over levers but this would result in a complicated, lengthy explanation and probably raise a lot of ‘But what if ?’ questions and unnecessary debate. Be assured that the crossed levers in the Wheatstone Duet under discussion are not the result of a mistake by the people who made it or anything to do with the pivot positions etc. I would impress on anyone coming across such arrangements not to try any changes in an attempt to ‘uncross’ them as the response of the associated reeds will be adversely affected Contrary to belief, it is very doubtful if Sir Charles Wheatstone had practical input, if any, in the manufacture of instruments bearing the Wheatstone name. Geoffrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 lachenal baritone.jpg I have a Baritone EC which has crossover levers.... Never mind the crossovers. I'm curious what the reed pan looks like, since I see two comparatively large spaces without pads, and so presumably without reed chambers under them. What's there? I don't believe I've ever seen blank/empty segments in any concertina with radially arranged reed chambers, though I suppose this could be the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) lachenal baritone.jpg I have a Baritone EC which has crossover levers.... Never mind the crossovers. I'm curious what the reed pan looks like, since I see two comparatively large spaces without pads, and so presumably without reed chambers under them. What's there? I don't believe I've ever seen blank/empty segments in any concertina with radially arranged reed chambers, though I suppose this could be the first. Well Jim, this is not a fully radial reedpan... although it is 'canted'... the lowest 8 notes have screwed down reeds in parallel sided chambers, and then there is one note which has normal slot fitted reeds but is also in a parallel chamber. Note the Asymetric Hexagon, like a mini Bass EC. I'll have to re-size a couple of photos to be able to post them... just hang on a while or PM me with your email address. Edited March 5, 2015 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 lachenal baritone.jpg I have a Baritone EC which has crossover levers.... Never mind the crossovers. I'm curious what the reed pan looks like, since I see two comparatively large spaces without pads, and so presumably without reed chambers under them. What's there? I don't believe I've ever seen blank/empty segments in any concertina with radially arranged reed chambers, though I suppose this could be the first. I'm quite sure of having seen pics of Anglo concertinas (with button numbers lesser than 30 presumably) showing those empty radial segments - branded "Lachenal" as I seem to recall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david robertson Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 Be assured that the crossed levers in the Wheatstone Duet under discussion are not the result of a mistake by the people who made it or anything to do with the pivot positions etc. I would impress on anyone coming across such arrangements not to try any changes in an attempt to ‘uncross’ them as the response of the associated reeds will be adversely affected. Be assured, Geoff, that nothing is further from my mind than uncrossing the levers. As I said, I'm pretty sure that Sir Charles' people knew what they were doing - the enquiry was nothing more than idle curiosity on my part! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian brown Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I could provide the reason for the existence of crossed over levers but this would result in a complicated, lengthy explanation and probably raise a lot of ‘But what if ?’ questions and unnecessary debate. Geoffrey Ow don't be coy Geoffrey, "unnecessary debate" for some - the spice of life for others :-) I'm sure I'm not the only one scratching a hole in my head over this... Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david robertson Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) In response to a couple of enquiries, the range of this instrument is as follows: RH C3 to C6 LH F2 to C5 I should perhaps add that it will be offered for sale when it reaches the front of the restoration queue, unless someone expresses an interest before that, in which case it can be shoved nearer the front. Edited March 7, 2015 by david robertson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Crabb Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) "Never mind the crossovers. I'm curious what the reed pan looks like, since I see two comparatively large spaces without pads, and so presumably without reed chambers under them. What's there? I don't believe I've ever seen blank/empty segments in any concertina with radially arranged reed chambers, though I suppose this could be the first". 'Combination' reed pans may be found in some Double Action Baritone and Bass English concertinas and Duets. They can occur in instruments having 6,8 or twelve sides. Geoffey Edited March 7, 2015 by Geoffrey Crabb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian brown Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Here's an anglo with crossover levers that I've just noticed on ebay - I assume it was done to avoid an inboard reed for the LH thumb button? Adrian PS: it's here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Concertina-anglo-90-sure-Crabb-/161619786343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item25a14a3a67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Crabb Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Here's an anglo with crossover levers that I've just noticed on ebay - I assume it was done to avoid an inboard reed for the LH thumb button? Adrian PS: it's here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Concertina-anglo-90-sure-Crabb-/161619786343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item25a14a3a67 screen-capture-14.jpg See attached, I hope it is understandable Geoffrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian brown Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Here's an anglo with crossover levers that I've just noticed on ebay - I assume it was done to avoid an inboard reed for the LH thumb button? Adrian PS: it's here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Concertina-anglo-90-sure-Crabb-/161619786343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item25a14a3a67 screen-capture-14.jpg See attached, I hope it is understandable Crossed levers 31 button Crabb Anglo.doc Geoffrey Thanks a lot Geoffrey, that's very clear and understandable Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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