Which Is Best For Me? Duet Or English. - A Clown

[daviseri]

I am looking to pick up the concertina.

 

I have a character called red bastard, who is a bouffon ( a sort of onry clown) and i think the concertina would be perfect ot put into my act.

 

I will be a beginner but am serious about learning to play.

 

because i want to play on my feet i think i need something light, but want the range of a 48 key.

 

have been doing research.

 

english seems better than anglo. I was told there was a tradition of clowns playing english. Also anglo seems as though it may be more difficult to pick up and master the push and pull notes.

 

Questions are. is a Stagi a decent instrument for a beginner to start on?

 

I assume Treble is lower than a Tenor in pitch?

 

My voice is a baritone voice. I see they make baritone pitch concertinas. Would that probably be easier for me to sing to than a treble?

 

What about Duet concertinas. I hear the Hayden is easy and intuitive to pick up the fingering for a novice, but is probably too heavy to play standing up for long periods.

 

I also read that the other duet fingering systems are complicated to master.

 

What makes a duet different than an English? does it have a wider range of notes?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

if you are interested, visit my website www.redbastard.com to get a feel for the character.

 

Best

 

Eric

[stuart estell]

What an excellent costume - I hope you won't be offended by the comparison but it reminds me a little of something Leigh Bowery might have worn. You must make a tremendous impact on audience members who aren't sure of what they're about to see

 

The main difference between the duets and the English are that on a duet each hand is able to play complete scales and tunes independently (and there is an overlap in pitch between the hands - i.e. the left hand's high notes will be duplicated as the right hand's low notes; the amount of overlap varies according to the size of the instrument). If you want something light, the Stagi Hayden probably isn't for you - they are quite bulky.

 

As for the other duet systems being complicated - idiosyncratic is probably a better way to put it. I find the Maccann and Jeffries system duets quite intuitive to play, whereas I have enormous trouble with the Crane and Hayden duets (which on paper are more logically laid out). Others will tell you of completely different experiences. Most of it is down to what suits your individual brain. One disadvantage of opting for any of the other non-Hayden duet systems is that your only option is to go for a vintage instrument; compared with the prices of English and Anglo concertinas, though, they are not as expensive - a smallish Maccann duet, for example, can typically be had for less than a new mid-range accordion-reeded anglo. One other thing: personally, I find it harder to play a duet instrument standing up than I do the anglo. I don't know why this is, though.

 

I noticed in one or two of your photos on your website that you are performing in front of a band - do you do this regularly? I wouldn't write off the anglo on the basis of the push/pull action, but if you were wanting to play your concertina with the band, you should be aware that the anglo is better in a smaller range of keys. You'll see them described as "in C/G" or "in G/D" - and although an anglo with 30+ buttons can play in most keys reasonably happily, generally they're best in their two "home" keys and closely related keys. This might cause musicians working with you a bit of extra work - they may have to transpose tunes/songs to fit however you choose to play things on the concertina. All the other types can be played in any key without making too many musical compromises.

 

So, as far as Englishes go - tenor-trebles are lower than trebles, baritones lower still. A baritone would be fine for singing, certainly - but they're generally larger and heavier because of the additional size of the reeds they contain; also, if you have a baritone voice, you might get better musical contrast if playing something slightly outside of your usual vocal register. You could sing quite happily to a tenor-treble or a treble too.

 

The usual next piece of advice is, if you can, get your hands on some of the different types of instrument to see what _actually_ suits you. When I was doing research I thought I wanted to play the English but when I then tried to play one, I didn't get on with it at all, and ended up playing the anglo, and then duets as well. There are businesses (e.g. The Button Box) who will rent out instruments so that you don't have to make an immediate commitment. Hope this helps.

 

(edited for careless grammar)

Edited November 19, 2004 by stuart estell

[JimLucas]

...i think i need something light, but want the range of a 48 key.

Morse concertinas (Ceili anglo, Albion English) are the lightest, in my experience. I recommend them.

 

...anglo seems as though it may be more difficult to pick up and master the push and pull notes.

Considering what you do, you're probably more aware than most people of how you would react to such a factor. You should probably go with your intuition.

 

I was told there was a tradition of clowns playing english.

Here in Denmark -- and I think generally in continental Europe -- most people think of the conceritna as "the clown's instrument", but most people also seem to be aware of only the anglo kind. Having said that, I know personally only two persons who use(d) concertinas in clowning (one currently, one formerly), and they both play English. I think you should just use what's most comfortable for you, especially since it looks like the rest of your act isn't stereotypical.

 

Is a Stagi a decent instrument for a beginner to start on?

A Stagi English? Yes. But in my opinion the Morse Albion is far superior, though less than the full 48-button range. (There are various models of Stagi anglo, some more "adequate" than others.)

 

I assume Treble is lower than a Tenor in pitch?

No. That's backwards. The tenor English concertina goes a fifth lower than the treble. ("Tenor" isn't a term normally used in describing/classifiying other kinds of concertina.) And the baritone is lower than the tenor.

 

My voice is a baritone voice.  I see they make baritone pitch concertinas.  Would that probably be easier for me to sing to than a treble?

Not necessarily. It depends a lot on what sort of accompaniment you try to use. If you're going to duplicate the voice line on the concertina, most people would say that it should be in a different octave from your voice, though I don't think that should be a hard and fast rule. If you're doing other sorts of accompaniment, then I think it's very much up to you.

 

The baritone English concertina is an octave lower than the treble English. I was surprised to discover that the baritone Morse Albion is exactly the same small size and light weight as the treble Albion. If you do think the baritone range is what you want, I would suggest that as the way to go.

 

What about Duet concertinas.  What makes a duet different than an English?

For more information, you should check out this page of the concertina FAQ. But basically, the English has a single scale in which consecutive notes alternate between the ends, while each of the duets has a separate full scale on each end, with the left-hand range lower than the right, and a bit of overlap.

 

I hear the Hayden is easy and intuitive to pick up the fingering for a novice, but is probably too heavy to play standing up for long periods.  I also read that the other duet fingering systems are complicated to master.

The geometric regularity of the Hayden may make it easier to get started on, but I think mastery is a very different matter. Each duet had advantages or disadvantages for different types or pieces of music. You might want to read Robert Gaskins' comparison of Hayden and Maccann systems. I don't agree with all of his conclusions, in part because I think he takes a too limited musical perspective, but he does show that from at least one perspective the "superiority" of the Hayden is debatable. The Crane duet has its own regularity, but it's a different sort of regularity from the Hayden. The Maccann and Jeffries layouts also have underlying principles, but they're not as rigidly geometric as the Hayden. My own experience suggests that if you can become comfortable with one of the duets, you could become comfortable with any of them.

 

You haven't told us what instruments you already play, if any. That could be relevant. For me the English was most natural, and I suspect that's partly because I had previously played instruments that could play only one note at a time (trumpet, tin whistle, etc.). Unlike piano players, I wasn't used to playing a different part with each hand; in fact, I found that whole idea difficult. On the other hand, splitting the low and high ranges between the two hands on the duet concertinas seems more natural to those who already play piano.

 

If you do decide the duet concept is more to your liking, availability of both instruments and instruction material may affect your choice of which duet.

 

Some arrangements for the Maccann are available, and if you're lucky you might be able to get a copy of an old tutor. I know of one tutor for the Crane and none for either Jeffries or Hayden. However, if you're the sort who likes to teach himself through experimentation, that may not matter.

 

Currently the Stagi Hayden is the only duet readily available as a new instrument, and it has a reputation for being heavy and awkward. I think Bob Tedrow has made a couple of Haydens now, so you might be able to order one from him, much better quality than the Stagi, though I assume more expensive. The Morse Hayden should be coming "soon". (Recent Wheatstone and Dipper Haydens exist, and would be far more comfortable to play, but there hasn't been new production from them in years, and people who have them aren't selling them.) No one is currently making Crane, Maccann, or Jeffries duets, but vintage Cranes and Maccanns of different sizes/ranges are frequently available. I think a 55-button Lachenal New Model or Wheatstone Æola duet (Crane or Maccann) might meet your demands for both range and weight.

 

And if you have a new instrument made -- whichever kind, -- I'm pretty sure that any of the current makers (Morse, Tedrow, Geuns-Wakker) would be willing to do one with bright red bellows and ends, if you request it.

 

Good luck!

[Radioboy]

I think that it depends on the level of seriousness that you want in your musical accompaniment. If it isn't that important you might go with a cheap anglo and paint it or decorate it in a colorful amusing way. Also you might consider a miniature concertina. They come in all systems and can be high quality (EXPENSIVE). This can be very effective if you are a large person. At the last NE Squeeze-in somebody played a miniature anglo made by Colin Dipper. He made a grand entrance by having two big guys carry out a large box from which he took out the tiny instrument. If that is a direction that you would want to go Tedrow makes a very nice moderately priced miniature anglo. Good luck, Howie Leifer

[Richard Morse]

And here is a photo of that Dipper miniature....

[Richard Morse]

Hmmm, when looking for that Dipper, I also found this photo which gives you an idea of the range of sizes concertinas can come in....

[Richard Morse]

because i want to play on my feet i think i need something light, but want the range of a 48 key.

What type of music to you intend upon playing such that you need that range? Most English concertina players never use the entire 48 key range.

is a Stagi a decent instrument for a beginner to start on?

They are cheaper and only okay to start on. I certainly wouldn't recommend one for professional use though. Stagis are considerably harder to play (physically), troubleprone, not as durable, and not and responsive nor as capable of playing as loudly as the hybrid or vintage concertinas.

My voice is a baritone voice.  I see they make baritone pitch concertinas.  Would that probably be easier for me to sing to than a treble?

Most concertina players I know who sing with their instruments prefer lower pitched concertinas. Those English players usually have tenors or baritones and the anglo and duet players seem to softly chord or harmonize with the left side (lower range notes) when singing and come in with both sides (adding the higher melody notes) when playing a break.

 

Playing lower than one is singing allows one to sing the melody line with the support (chords or harmony) to be UNDER (or supporting) the singer. A higher range chord or harmony support is often percieved to be more predominant (because it's more brilliant or louder?) which can be confusing.

What about Duet concertinas.  I hear the Hayden is easy and intuitive to pick up the fingering for a novice, but is probably too heavy to play standing up for long periods.  I also read that the other duet fingering systems are complicated to master.

Many people find the Hayden to be the easiest of the duets to learn - but the other types are on par with Englishes which I think is quite reasonable to learn. Duets may *seem* more difficult though, as people will do a lot more with a duet than just the tune. I've also heard that duets are very difficult to master though the folks I know that play them well don't seem to think so (or at least don't let on that that is so).

 

The Stagi Hayden *is* heavier than the average concertina, but not greatly so. I think that because duets have hadstraps, they tend to be easier to support (and play) than the English type (though there are *lots* of people who don't have any problem playing English in the air - and one can always use a neckstrap...).

if you are interested,  visit my website www.redbastard.com to get a feel for the character.

Verrrrry impressive! A quality act really needs a quality concertina. Seriously! Forget the Stagi (unless you want to make destroying it part of your act).

 

Another consideration not mentioned yet is how you USE the concertina during performances. The visual part. I think that Englishes tend to look boring as they typically use so little air and need no bellows reversals that there isn't much sense of it "concertinaing". Many English performers get around this by moving the instrument around, swishing it from side ot side or "tossing" it about. The king of this technique is Alistair Anderson - complete with funny faces!

 

Duet players don't fare much better though, as they tend to have more notes going at the same time which results in more bellows action.

 

I think that anlgos are the most visually expressive of concertinas. They really move, breathe.... And a lot of people find them more forgiving to use expressively as adjacent (in a row) buttons are harmonious, so mistakes sound fine - like an intentional harmony. Not like adjacent notes of an English or duet which can be pretty alarming when played!

 

One way to get a handle on what type of system to go for would be to spend a hour or so in a store that carries all three types (in various qualities as well) and hear them played and fool with them yourself. Some stores like The Button Box rent all three types. You can rent them in sequence over the course of a month or so...

[jambo]

See somthing small, grotesque, and red.

 

http://hmi.homewood.net/persian/

[JimLucas]

See somthing small, grotesque, and red:  Tedrow Persian

On my screen that looks purple. I think the Alexandra model is more Eric's color, though I'd forget the fancy papers. And those are both anglos; Eric may want an English or duet. (Well, Bob has done a couple of Haydens, now.)

 

I remember once seeing an Æola with bright red bellows and quite red tortoise-shell ends. I believe the ends were painted red under the semi-transparent tortoise shell veneer.

[daviseri]

Thank you all for your insights. Looks like I need to try a bunch of things out, and your advice will help me in doing that.

 

Thank you for taking the time.

 

Best,

 

Eric

[Robin Harrison]

Hi Eric...I have a Wheatsone baritone English concertina,made in 1912, for a clown who performed in a circus in Paris, France, as part of a duo.It had guilt ends so it would be quite eye-catching. I know no more than that but it's intriguing ....it would be fascinating to try to discover what his act was. Regs Robin