Mirrored Duet Left Hand?

[rlgph]

I'm a beginner, having a great deal of fun with my recently acquired Elise (though having to work around my wife's dislike of the volume and timbre). I've also played around with "Duettina", an iPad app that simulates a Wicki duet. The app allows one to switch between a standard left hand arrangement (which is ironically referred to as "Inverted") and a mirrored version (which the app labels "Normal"). I've particularly been using the app to explore left hand accompaniment.

 

Curiously, i've found the mirrored button arrangement much more comfortable from a mental point of view than the standard arrangement. For example, i was immediately able to duplicate with my left hand what i was playing with my right with little effort -- so that i could easily play an octave accompaniment (or a fifth or third or sixth, within the limitations of the number of buttons). I can do that with the standard arrangement only very slowly, and with frequent mistakes.

 

I assume that this is something wired into my brain, because the mirrored arrangement feels so natural. I guess that i must be in the minority in this respect; otherwise the left side of duet concertinas would be mirrored from what they are. Those of you who have tried a simulated concertina with a mirrored left side, what has been your experience?

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

Original Wicki layout was mirrored, hence the "normal" and "inverted" (Hayden) modes.

 

Mirrored layout is in fact easier to grasp as finger movements when playing octaves are identical, but Hayden version has some advantages when playing chordal accompaniment:

- it is easier to use pinky finger for additional bass note (major triad with doubled root - with minor chords it is awkward in both layouts)

- using index and ring finger (or a single digit) for playing chord core (root + fifth) is more natural in Hayden orientation

 

There is also one unused (?) feature in Hayden version - one can play a single octave with two hands in 'Anglo' style: going up in one row on the LH and then going down on the RH without skipping rows with the same hand. Can be usefull in melody-only playing of otherwise "uncomfortable" phrases. Of course the same can be done with original Wicki variant, but going twice up doesn't feel that fluent as just rolling fingers in the same direction, like on a piano.

[Patrick Scannell]

I play with a middle-finger-root fingering which nicely engages the index finger on the left, but gives all that work to the pinky on the right. So if I had to choose, I'd take a mirror on the right side.

 

Also, the Elise can play quietly and I've heard that it is good practice to do so.

[Don Taylor]

I play with a middle-finger-root fingering which nicely engages the index finger on the left, but gives all that work to the pinky on the right. So if I had to choose, I'd take a mirror on the right side.

 

If I understand you correctly then I play index finger root on the RHS and third finger root on the LHS.

 

More specifically, for a C major scale on the LHS I would play:

C 3rd finger,

D middle,

E index,

F pinky,

G 3rd,

A middle,

B index

C 3rd

 

and on the RHS:

C index

D middle

E 3rd

F index

G middle

A 3rd

B pinky

C index

 

I had not thought about doing it any other way, but now you mention it I am very curious about what other folks do? And if I am doing it wrong?

 

I don't see how you can play, for example, a C major scale on the LHS without either having to jump the index finger when going from D to E or doing a piano style finger-over or finger-under to get at the E.

 

Also, the Elise can play quietly and I've heard that it is good practice to do so.

 

My cat would agree with this, and silence would be even better.

 

 

Don.

[rlgph]

 

- it is easier to use pinky finger for additional bass note (major triad with doubled root - with minor chords it is awkward in both layouts)

I find it hard to believe that i'll ever be playing four-fingered chords, but "never say never" they say.

 

- using index and ring finger (or a single digit) for playing chord core (root + fifth) is more natural in Hayden orientation

The index and and middle finger works just fine for root & 5th in the mirrored layout; or am i missing your point?

 

There is also one unused (?) feature in Hayden version - one can play a single octave with two hands in 'Anglo' style: going up in one row on the LH and then going down on the RH without skipping rows with the same hand. Can be usefull in melody-only playing of otherwise "uncomfortable" phrases.

Thanks for pointing this out; i hadn't noticed it.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

 

- using index and ring finger (or a single digit) for playing chord core (root + fifth) is more natural in Hayden orientation

The index and and middle finger works just fine for root & 5th in the mirrored layout; or am i missing your point?

 

 

 

 

My bad. I was mirroring layout in my head only just before sleep, without the actual instrument in my hands and got this one confused. I'm so used to Hayden version now, that it feels unnatural to use different fingering on either side (spreading fingers differently uses different and less trained muscles in my forearms). I totally forgot, that it is exaclty the fingering used on RH side...

 

Though the single digit multi button fingering is opposite to what I wrote earlier… It is easier to press root+fifth with a single button on a RH (or mirrored) side. But then, on a Hayden LH side it is easier to play root+fifth+oct this way. It is because the half moon shape of a digit when playing three buttons at once is bent upwards. I do this 3 button trick quite often for singing, but I use two fingers when playing root+fifth accompaniments for melodies.

 

Thinking a bit more about those two variants, as with any two layouts there are advantages in both: playing major 7th chord is easier on the RH (or mirrored) (you can play it with two figers only), while 7th is easier on the Hayden LH.

 

And you'll probably come to a point when you'll use single finger techniques and use 4 button chords like doubled root major or 7th chords, especially if you'll play self accompaniment for singing or as a harmony instrument when playing with others.

 

@Patrick & Don: I don't think that sticking to any "rigid" finger-button assingment is a way to go on the Hayden. I use both your variants of fingering a major scale depending on actual phrases in a tune. And I use my wrist a lot when playing chordal accompaniment (especially oompah rhytms) and realy don't see how one can stick to rigid scale fingering when doing so. In fact, my melody playing is more closely related to chord fingering than to scale fingering as I often learn a tune from harmony structure, adding melodic passages to fill harmony, not the oposite way.

[Patrick Scannell]

Don, As I understand it, middle-finger-root just refers to the RHS.

It corresponds to the LHS just as you finger it.

 

On the RHS I finger:

C - M

D - R

E - P

F - I

G - M

A - R

B - P

C - M

 

This style labors the pinky while idling the index finger.

There are some great older threads concerning the relative merits of Hayden fingering styles.

---

Brian Hayden says:

Regards fingering I favour "flexible fingering"; and will state catagoricly that there is no "correct fingering" for the Hayden system concertina! My little fingers I use very flexibly on the RHS for the leading notes, and for chromatic decorations, and usually find that I am using ti IV (up) do I, re II, fa III, which fits the RH very comfortably, but might also use do II, & re III, then mi IV, up to Fa I, So II, La III.
On the LHS I use my little finger almost entirely for Bass notes around an octave below my other fingers which may be playing counter melody or chords. I have trained it to go right across even under Left I.
Inventor.

---

So there is no "wrong" way.

[Patrick Scannell]

I don't think that sticking to any "rigid" finger-button assingment is a way to go on the Hayden.

Agreed, but as a beginner struggling to find the right note, a default fingering helps me orient.

[David Barnert]

For example, i was immediately able to duplicate with my left hand what i was playing with my right with little effort -- so that i could easily play an octave accompaniment (or a fifth or third or sixth, within the limitations of the number of buttons). I can do that with the standard arrangement only very slowly, and with frequent mistakes.

 

I play the 3-hole tabor pipe, and I find that if I have learned a tune with my left hand (the standard way to play the instrument, beating the tabor with the right), I can also play it with my right hand (how I play when I'm driving—don't tell anyone) without further practice. This is analogous to your first sentence, above.

 

But I've also been playing the Hayden for 25+ years and while parallel octave playing takes some effort, that is not an effect I have much use for. I do spend a lot of time playing in parallel 3rds, 6ths, and 10ths, and I find they fall right under my fingers after having spent just a little time learning the patterns many years ago. I would think this would be more awkward in a mirror arrangement because the constant back-and-forth between major and minor intervals would necessitate switching rows at different times with each hand. Also, since both hands will be playing notes from the same collection of naturals, sharps, and flats (ie., in the same key), it's unlikely you'll be using the same finger on each hand at the same time, as the two hands will be positioned over the same swath of buttons but playing notes an interval apart. If you started playing in parallel 10ths, for instance, on a mirrored keyboard using the same starting finger, you'd find yourself playing only major 10ths, and quickly playing accidentals that don't belong in the key.

 

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I'll note that this is another area where a MIDI Hayden would be useful, in that it would allow the user to customize the keyboard layout to their taste.

[rlgph]

But I've also been playing the Hayden for 25+ years and while parallel octave playing takes some effort, that is not an effect I have much use for. I do spend a lot of time playing in parallel 3rds, 6ths, and 10ths, and I find they fall right under my fingers after having spent just a little time learning the patterns many years ago. I would think this would be more awkward in a mirror arrangement because the constant back-and-forth between major and minor intervals would necessitate switching rows at different times with each hand. Also, since both hands will be playing notes from the same collection of naturals, sharps, and flats (ie., in the same key), it's unlikely you'll be using the same finger on each hand at the same time, as the two hands will be positioned over the same swath of buttons but playing notes an interval apart. If you started playing in parallel 10ths, for instance, on a mirrored keyboard using the same starting finger, you'd find yourself playing only major 10ths, and quickly playing accidentals that don't belong in the key.

 

 

Perhaps i am confused by what it means to play in parallel 3rds, 6ths, etc? My understanding is that, e.g., playing in parallet thirds, every note on the left side is a third above the corresponding melody note on the right side. For an idealized Hayden system this just means shifting your left hand a couple of buttons over, doesn't it? In which case you would be using the same corresponding finger on each hand. (Of course, the finite size of the button arrangement on a real concertina may make this not possible in some keys.)

 

Probably my confusion is that, as a beginner, i tend to think duet and Hayden are synonomous, which of course is not the case. My apologies to non-Hayden duet players.

Edited November 25, 2014 by rlgph

[rlgph]

My primary reason for posting this topic was curiousity about the historical choice of the the Hayden arrangement over the mirrored Wicki arrangement, if, as it seems to me, the mirrored version seems to "fit" the brain/hand coordination better. (I do agree that the standard arrangement is easier to picture in the mind, since it is the same on both sides, but it seems that learning to actually finger the notes differently on the two sides provides a somewhat steeper learning curve.) Has the mirrored arrangement ever been tried on an actual concertina? Has anyone else here experimented with the two arrangements using the Duettina app or something similar? If so, what is your experience?

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

Perhaps i am confused by what it means to play in parallel 3rds, 6ths, etc? My understanding is that, e.g., playing in parallet thirds, every note on the left side is a third above the corresponding melody note on the right side. For an idealized Hayden system this just means shifting your left hand a couple of buttons over, doesn't it? In which case you would be using the same corresponding finger on each hand. (Of course, the finite size of the button arrangement on a real concertina may make this not possible in some keys.)

 

 

 

 

You have two 3rd intervals - major and minor and playing in parallel 3rds you'll have to switch them accordingly while moving up the scale, so each parallel pair stays in given key. It is easiest to learn on a single side of Hayden concertina - as you know single (major) octave on a Hayden is divided in two rows (3+4 butons). Playing in thirds means playing notes that are confined to this 3+4 shape and follow this rule: "you play a note and a third note that comes in sequence" [NOT "always third button to the right" - this will produce chromatic scale with four intervals being outside the key]. Geometrically speaking you wll move your fingers in two possible shapes - "C-E" and "D-F" that will fit in 3+4 octave.

The same principle applies to any given parallel interval, so in both Wicki and Hayden layouts you'll have to move your fingers in non-mirrored way. Unless of course you play modern, chromatic music

[rlgph]

Thanks for the explanation, Lukasz.

[inventor]

Historical choice.

First of all my personal background on free-reed musical instruments. I started at the age of 17 with a D/G Hohner Erica melodeon; with the now bog standard 3rd note start note arrangement. My aim was to play for Cotswold Morris dancing and English Country dancing. The right hand keyboard progressed in rising pitch, as on all melodeons and accordions, from left to right. That settled the right hand permanently into my brain.

At that time melodeons in those keys were very uncommon and melodeon players rarely played with fiddle led country dance bands. Fiddle players played mostly in D & G, but also quite a bit in A, and for this reason I acquired an A melodeon. Swaping the two melodeons in the middle of a dance set usually lost me 8 bars of music, and as I played with 3 fiddle players, and was the only player with any sort of bass accompaniment, this was not ideal. I had also found that the D/G melodeon had quite a lot of very high notes that I never used, and I couldn't find any of them in all the Traditional tune books that I had accumulated. On the A melodeon I found that for most tunes I was playing an octave below what was written, and to play at usual pitch I had to relearn the fingering. This led me to my first invention of a melodeon with only 21 playing notes (some played in 2 different places on the instrument) in A, D & G; with all the octaves playing the same fingering.

A few years later I bought a small 48 bass Piano-accordion, and converted the right hand side into a melodeon button keyboard with 5 rows in Bb/A/D/G/Bb. All the Bb buttons were repeated and many of the other notes appeared in 2 different rows, so that in total I used only 12 different buttons per octave.

My reason for buying the instrument was 1) to add the key Bb, which is the next most commonly used key by traditional fiddle players, and to be able to play sometimes in other keys ; and 2) to have counter basses and many minor chords on the left hand.

The left hand (Stradella) bass is quite easy to learn, with the flattest chords to the left and the sharpest chords to the right.

The order of notes on the 2nd bass row of this accordion was Eb, Bb. F, C, G, D, A, E.

 

I will have to take a break now from my life history but will continue my explanation in another couple of days.

 

Inventor.

Edited November 26, 2014 by inventor

[inventor]

The saga continues.

 

I did not mention earlier that Melodeon left hand basses and chords are also arranged in sets of four, with the ones that semi-automaticaly accompany the flattest key down to the left, and the ones for the sharpest key up to the right.

 

Some years later I bought a secondhand C/G Jeffries anglo concertina. The left hand had the lowest notes to the left and the highest notes to the right. I quickly modified this instrument by moving a few reeds so that I could instantly play morris tunes on the right hand side; and quickly learned to accompany them on the LHS.

 

This was an excellent instrument for Cotswold Morris, but when I started to accompany singers it was more difficult. So I got what I thought might be the solution by buying a Jeffries 50 button Duet. The left hand also had most of the lowest notes on the left hand side to the left and the higher notes of the LHS were to the right.

However I did not find the instrument particularly easy to play, and being pitched in the Key of Ab didn't help. I experimented with several different layouts over a year, and finally came up with the now celebrated "Hayden Duet System". I was totally unaware that a Swiss Gentleman had come up with the same idea for a bandoneon style concertina nearly a hundred years earlier.

 

The Jeffries was by now almost a complete wreak; so some years later I had a concertina made to my specification. I had by now seen the two other common types of duet. (Maccann and Crane) which also played in parallel (not mirrored), and one player even showed me how he could turn the instrument over to play the melody an octave lower with a high up accompaniment. I rather liked this idea, though I have rarely used it.

 

To be continued.

 

Inventor..

 

 

 

.

[rlgph]

Very interesting history. I'm looking forward to the next installment. Thanks.

[JimLucas]

I'll note that this is another area where a MIDI Hayden would be useful, in that it would allow the user to customize the keyboard layout to their taste.

 

One could customize which buttons play which notes, but not the slant or other details of the button array. In particular, in switching between side-by-side and "mirrored" note assignments one can't switch between one slant and its mirror image.

 

How much does that matter? I think that prior discussions suggest it's more important to some individuals than to others.