Geoff Wooff Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Dear Befuddled of Bishop's Stortford, (and all us other confused souls here), it would appear that the definition of these more unusual models might also have caused some dificulties for the staff at Wheatstone's: A friend of mine has a Baritone that carries the serial number 29393 (just two instruments before the one in question here). It is also described as a Baritone Treble with the model number 20C, it being a 64key Aeola. It is a very long time since I had that instrument in my hands but from memory it is a standard Baritone with the buttons in the same places as a Treble but sounding an octave lower, as in Geoff Crabb's diagram above. I am currently trying to get my friend to confirm the layout, however this use of the same model number for two very different Baritones made at the same time may explain why there was a change to identifing the Baritone-Trebles as numbers 14,15 and 16 during the following year. In a previous thread where BT's were discussed , cannot find it at the moment, SteveS said that he has one which was made much earlier than the apparent 1923 starting date. This could suggest that there were many more produced than those that can be counted by these later designation numbers. Edited October 21, 2014 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conzertino Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I can not see, where the problem is! In my post above and the one following it all models are shown: There are four baritone-trebles: Geoff has a 56-key model 14, I have a 62 key-model 15, a 64 key model 16 plus a 52-key special. Then there are the baritones: a 48 key model 20, a 56 key model 20A plus a special 64 key one ( lowest note F ) and a bass-baritone ( lowest note C ). All baritones ( even a 64 key ) have the same key-position as a treble, all baritone-trebles have an obvious extra row of keys below!! The bass-baritone also has this extra line, as it corresponds to a tenor-treble ( down to c ). Simple!! You will see from the pictures that Geoff's model 14 is the only one of all of them that has the extra keys at the very top - just as the one on ebay! I have / had several Aeolas, where the description in the ledgers was not correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Pierceall Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Geoff, there may have been more BT's produced than enumerated in the ledgers; however, they first started appearing in the pricelists around 1920. Of the BT's that were enumerated as such in the ledgers, I calculated that they constituted only 1/3 of 1 percent of all instruments produced by Wheatstone. The model 16 was the most produced, followed by the 14 and finally the 15 coming in last. A special model, serial number 33236 with 52 keys in shell was also produced. Given the discrepancies in the ledgers, it's anyone's guess what the actual production numbers are, but the BT wasn't a popular model according to these stats. Edited October 22, 2014 by michaelpier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) I had one once and recorded a few hymns on it. It is a bit of a workout, but the aluminum or tin reed frames did lighten it up a bit. It took a fair amount of muscle to work the bellows. I have one or two of the recordings on my Vimeo channel, Vox Convento, if anyone is interested in hearing a rare instrument. Only about 125 were ever made. Yes these larger concertinas do take more effort to create the pressure especially at the Forte end of the dynamic range. This is why I have stuck with the smallest of the BT's. At 8" across it is not such a lump to play especially when coming from the standard Trebles. The larger Baritones can get to 8 3/4", which might not appear to be that much larger untill you get one on your lap. I use wrist straps for that little extra pull but building up muscle is also part of the transition. I regard the 56key BT as the most desirable of the Baritones, as it is hardly larger than a Tennor Treble, playing melodies in the normal treble range and adding low harmonies in the manner of a Duet. Edited October 22, 2014 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) Having looked at the keyboard layout I can see how to make one of these: 1) take a 56 key baritone 2) turn it upside down 3) switch around the finger plates and thumbstraps the result is a BT Should be doable with an old and unwanted baritone - if you have one, send it to me and I'll give it a try Edited October 22, 2014 by SteveS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) Having looked at the keyboard layout I can see how to make one of these: 1) take a 56 key baritone 2) turn it upside down 3) switch around the finger plates and thumbstraps the result is a BT Should be doable with an old and unwanted baritone - if you have one, send it to me and I'll give it a try Lovely idea Steve, and you had me going there for a while..... BUT if we look at Geoff Crabb's diagrams above for the models 20A and 14 it can be seen that although the right side of 20A and the left side of 14 appear to be the same... the right side of 14 is a mirror image of the left side of 20A. Shame because fittings of a 'quick release' design would make for a versatile of any Baritone. Edited October 22, 2014 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Shame because fittings of a 'quick release' design would make for a versatile of any Baritone. Quick release fittings! Now there is a good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Sold for £2550. Did anyone here win it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Geoff, there may have been more BT's produced than enumerated in the ledgers; however, they first started appearing in the pricelists around 1920. Of the BT's that were enumerated as such in the ledgers, I calculated that they constituted only 1/3 of 1 percent of all instruments produced by Wheatstone. The model 16 was the most produced, followed by the 14 and finally the 15 coming in last. A special model, serial number 33236 with 52 keys in shell was also produced. Given the discrepancies in the ledgers, it's anyone's guess what the actual production numbers are, but the BT wasn't a popular model according to these stats. In spite of the apparent rarity in the ledgers, I'm pretty sure that I've seen (I haven't been keeping statistics) three or four baritone-trebles sold within the last couple of years. And I'm very pleased with my own, which I've had for more than 30 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I'd like a wooden-ended BT - this one was too rich for me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLDNICKILBY Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Ah, the problem is Steve you have "Yorkshire Pockets" fitted with Chubb Locks. That is the price someone was willing to pay. We would all like to pay 10 pence for 20 pence apples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle's cook Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Given that it was in both mildly distressed state and the reeds in particular were not shown, this does indeed seem a high price (or gamble). I too have been in the market for one of these and this is, I think, the third I have seen in the past 18 months on public offer. Two appeared on Ebay last year, the better one of which was restored and offered here (and on Ebay) some weeks ago (they had the same serial number). The third would be this one. I wonder if their modern relative frequency of appearance has to do with the fact that they were always specialist (and very expensive) instruments which may not have seen quite the level of action of TTs and trebles? Do modern day owners find that they only use these boxes for particular pieces/events, preferring TTs/trebles for everyday use? (incidently this has been a fascinating thread and as ever, very appreciative to the knowledgeable contributors) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conzertino Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 In my opinion it was a realistic price. Including a decent restoration it will cost around 3.000 Pound - which is less that what I paid for my BTs. Chris Algar sucessfully sets the prices for the concertina-scene. A good treble Aeola will cost about 3.500 Pound, a tenor-treble Aeola about 4.000, a BT or baritone even more - fully restored and with warranty. And you can walk in, test several instruments and buy the one that suits you best. Fair enough! As long as he is around, there will be no real bargains on ebay or at auctions... On the other hand, so far I never lost money on a concertina. Somehow players usually want more than one instrument... and there is only a small border to getting hooked and start some sort of collection. Good concertinas were very expensive items when they were made and like sports-cars or antique furniture one can not expect to get them cheap... However there are enough decent instruments at reasonable prices around for beginners and advanced players, who can not necessarily afford a baritone-treble Aeola... To answer the other question: these days I play my amazing piccolo-sized treble 70%, various other trebles and TTs 20%,the BTs 5% and the baritones and various odd sizes another 5% - but I don't want to miss any of them!! See http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=17071 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted October 24, 2014 Author Share Posted October 24, 2014 Given that it was in both mildly distressed state and the reeds in particular were not shown, this does indeed seem a high price (or gamble). I too have been in the market for one of these and this is, I think, the third I have seen in the past 18 months on public offer. Two appeared on Ebay last year, the better one of which was restored and offered here (and on Ebay) some weeks ago (they had the same serial number). The third would be this one. I wonder if their modern relative frequency of appearance has to do with the fact that they were always specialist (and very expensive) instruments which may not have seen quite the level of action of TTs and trebles? Do modern day owners find that they only use these boxes for particular pieces/events, preferring TTs/trebles for everyday use? (incidently this has been a fascinating thread and as ever, very appreciative to the knowledgeable contributors) Glad you found this thread 'fascinating' Myrtles Cook! I think we all learnt something . As can be seen from the photo of my BT the little Velcro patches are for attachment of microphones, this was to boost the sound level so's I could hear the concertina in a very noisy dance band, plugged into a small amplifier situated behind my chair. I now have a very loud Treble for the Band work, it needs no electrical help and the BT is played almost exclusively at home where the loud treble is not so suitable. The BT has seen very extensive use by my friend, the previous owner, who paid his way through university playing it in a band. I like to use it for 'bigger arrangements' and Tune of the Month submissions (oh I have been slack with TOTM this year tut tut)... but it is played every day at least an hour... and generally thought by all in this house to be the finnest concertina that ever came in the door! At the moment I have three Treble EC's and a 46 Hayden.... would I part with any of them? Yes, but never the BT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian brown Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I'm going to show my ignorance here, but is this the same size instrument Dave Townsend plays? I was very impressed when he told me a few years ago that his sole instrument was the one he'd always played, that he'd found in a music shop and taught himself to play. I got the impression he'd never had another... Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conzertino Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Adrian, as far as I know, his famous instrument is a tenor-treble with baritone layout and size ( 8" ). I happen to own one of those. Here you see from right to left: 48 key baritone, 56 key baritone-sized tenor-treble, standard 56 key tenor-treble. Note the thumb-strap positions! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conzertino Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Geoff, there may have been more BT's produced than enumerated in the ledgers; however, they first started appearing in the pricelists around 1920. Of the BT's that were enumerated as such in the ledgers, I calculated that they constituted only 1/3 of 1 percent of all instruments produced by Wheatstone. The model 16 was the most produced, followed by the 14 and finally the 15 coming in last. A special model, serial number 33236 with 52 keys in shell was also produced. Given the discrepancies in the ledgers, it's anyone's guess what the actual production numbers are, but the BT wasn't a popular model according to these stats. I happen to own that shell BT You can see it on my earlier post here on the left. Here some nice historical backing... I I wouldn't call it a tenor-treble down to F though, but a baritone-treble - or better a baritone-tenor, as there is not a lot left in the treble range;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_holden Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Fifty quid! Is it still for sale at that price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now