English Or Anglo? Other Questions...

[Daniel Hersh]

Ceemonster is right about how I feel about missing notes. My head almost exploded when trying to play some slow airs on a harmonica. I couldn't wrap my hand around why would one note be doubled, but one note missing. I haven't touched that harmonica in probably a year.

 

Missing low notes and high notes isn't completely devastating. But I would need all the notes of the chromatic scale around middle C. Life just isn't the same without them. But transposing isn't new to me so if there were diatonic scales that had all the notes, I could surely compromise. Not to mention I would be learning Irish concertina repertoire so I don't think there would be much of an issue of missing notes?

 

The standard concertina for Irish music is a 30 button Anglo, so if you get one of those you should have all the notes you need. (A 26 or 28 button might do the job too.) The missing notes at the low end of a 30 button are below the range of the fiddle. I don't know of any Irish tunes that go below the fiddle range.

 

Yes, you could transpose, but if you ever want to play with other musicians you may find that they're not willing to transpose with you. And transposing some Irish tunes can put them into the problematic high and low ends of the Anglo range.

[Rod]

There is of course more than one subtle way of fudging for a missing note. Jumping an octave up or down, just momentarily, or allowing an accompanying chord to compensate for the absent melody note can often solve the problem, or so I kid myself, but then I have 36 buttons to play with. It wouldn't work for Irish Traditional.

[LoM]

Well thanks everyone for all the advice, wisdom, and opinions. I have a better idea of what I'm dealing with now and what options are best for me. I'll definitely be heading up to see Greg Jowaisas in the coming weeks. I'll also be looking over this thread and the site to see what else I can learn about this wonderful instrument. -Cheers!

[ceemonster]

Of course, the Anglo does not have all the pertinent notes in both directions. I had no trouble getting on with Anglo and played it obsessively for several years. But I got annoyed enough with having certain notes in only one direction, not having certain of the notes below middle C, and wanting to change directions whenever I wanted, on any note I wanted, that I'm currently a couple months into my second year on EC. That's another good reason to visit Greg. You can look at both systems even though Anglo may indeed be the right concertina for you....

Edited October 14, 2014 by ceemonster

[alex_holden]

I would also suggest at least trying both systems if you can. From past discussions on this subject, what is logical/intuitive to one person is "couldn't wrap my head around it" to somebody else.

[Wolf Molkentin]

As I haven't got the time to go carefully through all the previous post I just feel like saying (adding?):

 

1. For my own pianist's brains it was and is definitely the English system (fully chromatic on a diatonic ground, even with "white" and "black" keys)! You might thus give it a try, as Alex has suggested...

 

2. Do you intend to play "ITM" in the strict sense, or just traditional Irish music, maybe even with added harmony? Your choice might be biased by that I'd guess....

 

2. Try a Rochelle / Jackie (the English variant) or listen to it; I didn't like the tone very much as I heard one; of course you might, but again you might not as well...

 

Best wishes - Wolf

[alex_holden]

You can probably also pick up a nice vintage English for less money than a nice vintage Anglo.

[lukmanohnz]

Thanks for this useful discussion thread. It's very helpful for another n00b!

[MatthewVanitas]

I'll go slightly contrarian here (along with Alex's implication), and say that you might want to at least investigate Irish music on the English.

 

The absolutely predominant Irish concertina style is the "Noel Hill" style popularized on the Anglo in the 1970s or so. That's largely killed off a lot of more-traditional Anglo styles like along-the-row. So, to one degree, yes, if you want to play Irish music in the modern day, it's expected you'll get a 30b Anglo and learn the omnipresent Noel Hill style. That is not, however, actually mandatory, just the current fashion.

 

We have some good threads here about Irish music on the English, and the best point I've seen made is that one shouldn't aspire to imitate the Anglo concertina on the English (which can be done but is a bit of a parlour-trick), but rather to look at other heavily melodic instruments like fiddle, uilleann pipes, and Irish flute, and take inspiration from those traditions.

 

Here are a few clips of "Irish on the English"

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK5Avlw0tVA Cool clip of Simon Thoumire backed up by bodhran (he also has for-pay web seminar on such)
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tHR8VXPwsw Monty Chiton
• 
  
• Dick Miles is an advocate of Irish on the English, and has written a number of books (www.dickmiles.com), and has some video clips, largely of song accompaniment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bFeua5R8w8
• 
  
• Alistair Anderson largely played Northumbrian on English concertina, but I've read that his instruction books for the English are very applicable to Irish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKNiHEXVWao
• 
  
• There's a woman Madeline O Dowd who won in the All-Ireland Fleadh on English concertina, but I'm not sure where to find clips of her.
• 
  

 

Here's a pretty comprehensive old thread on the topic: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10431&page=1

Thread has a long list of "Irish on the English" players you can explore, listen to, see how they strike you.

 

So the long/short is that if you want to play in the current Anglo tradition (sanctified by a couple of decades at most), get a 30b or close to it if you find a good deal on a 24/26/28 and learn Noel Hill style.

 

If you want to put your fiddling skills onto a different instrument, and get a very different flow/feel of concertina playing (the actual notes themselves will sound the same, it's the style of play that the system changes), then consider English.

 

And in whatever case, visiting Greg will be an outstanding way to feel some things out and get your headspace locked on.

Edited October 14, 2014 by MatthewVanitas

[Doug Barr]

From MatthewVanitas

 

"The absolutely predominant Irish concertina style is the "Noel Hill" style popularized on the Anglo in the 1970s or so. That's largely killed off a lot of more-traditional Anglo styles like along-the-row. So, to one degree, yes, if you want to play Irish music in the modern day, it's expected you'll get a 30b Anglo and learn the omnipresent Noel Hill style. That is not, however, actually mandatory, just the current fashion."

 

I think I have to disagree with you here.....Becoming more familiar with the styles of the Anglo playing ITM, I would say that Noel has a very distinctive style but it may not be the "predominant style" of today. Many of the young ITM concertina players are not playing his style completely. They may borrow certain ideas from him but they do play differently. Just have a listen to a few such as Edel, Caitlin, or Tim and you will see.

 

My opinion for what it is worth is if you want to play ITM then give the Anglo a try.

 

Good luck with whatever you do and have fun....find some others to play with, it makes it all the better.

 

Doug

[LoM]

"2. Do you intend to play "ITM" in the strict sense, or just traditional Irish music, maybe even with added harmony? Your choice might be biased by that I'd guess...."

 

I intend to play the way i've heard the others play. With a subtle self-accompaniment. Fortunately, the person I first heard play concertina, Ernestine Healy, teaches an 11 week and a 13 week course in the Online Academy of Irish Music. How awesome is that? Even better, Edel Fox teaches an 18 week course on the basics! So I'm leaning very heavy towards the Anglo because i'm going depend heavily on their instruction. Not sure if I said this but concertina is very foreign to me, and even though i've held one or two, i'm taking it's potential difficulty to heart. I doubted how difficult the fiddle would be and i've struggled since the beginning. I had no idea why I thought it would be easy lol. But i've learned from that experience so I plan on utilizing every resource I have for concertina.

 

As for the "Noel Hill" style, i'm with Doug Barr. I have full albums of Noel Hill and Caitlin Nic Gabhann, and they definitely have distinct styles. Caitlin mentions in an interview that it was her teacher, Mícheál Ó Raghallaigh, that may have influenced her the most. I absolutely love her playing. Her self-titled album is amazing. Her repertoire and style all around are wonderful.

[Greg Jowaisas]

Jerone,

I just talked with Bob Tedrow who is an excellent concertina maker (hybrids) and all around nice guy. He does some modifications on a Rochelle that help with a few inherent problems (enlarging the air hole is one). Bob is going to send me one of his Rochelle's for you to try when you visit.

 

I'll have some vintage anglos and englishes on hand so you should get a good idea of what is available in both systems.

 

Greg

 

BTW I heard some very nice and capable Irish Trad playing on English concertina at this year's Squeeze In. Ken Sweeney could do it all and Jim Norman was very good and especially outstanding when seconding "The Atomic Clock" Doug Barr.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Greg Jowaisas

[Wolf Molkentin]

"2. Do you intend to play "ITM" in the strict sense, or just traditional Irish music, maybe even with added harmony? Your choice might be biased by that I'd guess...."

 

I intend to play the way i've heard the others play. With a subtle self-accompaniment. Fortunately, the person I first heard play concertina, Ernestine Healy, teaches an 11 week and a 13 week course in the Online Academy of Irish Music. How awesome is that? Even better, Edel Fox teaches an 18 week course on the basics! So I'm leaning very heavy towards the Anglo because i'm going depend heavily on their instruction. Not sure if I said this but concertina is very foreign to me, and even though i've held one or two, i'm taking it's potential difficulty to heart. I doubted how difficult the fiddle would be and i've struggled since the beginning. I had no idea why I thought it would be easy lol. But i've learned from that experience so I plan on utilizing every resource I have for concertina.

 

As for the "Noel Hill" style, i'm with Doug Barr. I have full albums of Noel Hill and Caitlin Nic Gabhann, and they definitely have distinct styles. Caitlin mentions in an interview that it was her teacher, Mícheál Ó Raghallaigh, that may have influenced her the most. I absolutely love her playing. Her self-titled album is amazing. Her repertoire and style all around are wonderful.

 

Not being aware of every single player you're mentioning myself it might be enough reading the name of Edel Fox and your willing to follow her playing and instructions - the Anglo seems to be the system of your choice then (as long as you'll be able to cope with the bisonoric design which you in fact already know from the harmonica).

 

However, regarding the sound you should give them (Rochelle, "hybrid" accordion-reeded instrument, vintage anglo concertina) a listen or a squeeze if you get the chance before buying one...

[maki]

Great post by MatthewVanitas.

Others who play in a non Noel Hill style, though still on anglo;

Kitty Hayes

 

Mary Macnamara

 

Chris Drowney

 

http://www.allcelticmusic.com/artists/Chris%20Droney.html

 

And that OAIM is a great way to learn. two thumbs up.

Edited October 14, 2014 by maki

[lukmanohnz]

LoM I would like to request a huge favor if you would be so kind. It would be extremely helpful if you would share your thoughts and impressions of the different concertinas after your visit to Greg's to audition his instruments!

[LoM]

Lukmanohnz

LoM I would like to request a huge favor if you would be so kind. It would be extremely helpful if you would share your thoughts and impressions of the different concertinas after your visit to Greg's to audition his instruments!

Like a review from a beginner's perspective?

[cboody]

Hi Jerone,

 

Your friendly musicologist from thesession here.

 

I play English, but I know how strong your interest and motivation to play Irish music is, and how hard you have worked at it. Very successfully too! I have little doubt that Anglo should be your choice, that you should have 30 buttons, and that you would be much happier with an older Lachenal or Wheatstone than with a Rochelle. I was going to try Anglo and got a Rochelle. I found the action and tone quality so objectionable that I couldn't bear to play it. In fairness it has been a steppingstone for many players, and a good one...but it didn't work for me and I don't think from you thesession comments that it would for you.

 

That said though, the very best thing you can do is visit Greg J. He is a good player of both, a truly fine repair person, and an all around good guy. His advice will be a useful guide for you and he won't have a vested interest in anything but helping you decide. Make that trip!

 

And, good luck. If you apply yourself a s you have with the fiddle you'll succeed.

 

Chuck Boody

[ceemonster]

i actually am playing irish trad on a high-quality accordion-reeded ec with TAM reeds, and love it. my one worry about investing in a concertina-reeded EC, which i wish to do, is that something about the engineering of ECs seems to work against them being as "fat" in timbre and as loud and robust as anglos. posters have offered technical/design explanations for this in other threads, but i did not understand them. on the other hand, geoff has suggested that it may simply be that it is perfectly possible to design and engineer ECs to be louder and more robust, but that EC makers have never addressed the challenge because ECs were historically designed for the upper classes to play classical and other refined music in the parlor. the highest-quality ECs are indeed exquisitely responsive and dynamically expressive. but the tone is not the "fat" and robust timbre you want for dance-based world folk music. some of the wheatstone model 21s and 22s are quite robust, but i want my concertina-reeded EC to have tenor notes. and many of the TTs, while incredible, have a "thinner" more refined tone....

 

but in terms of actually PLAYING itm on EC and having it sound good....i think that given an ITM-literate player, it can sound at least as good as the great irish PA players sound, and perhaps even better, because you can switch bellows directions a bit more often on an EC than on a PA, which gives your itm playing that sound of air movement...

Edited October 15, 2014 by ceemonster