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English Or Anglo? Other Questions...


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Hello all! My name is Jerone :) I've been a musician for a number of years now and I think i've finally made a decision on the 3rd instrument i'd like to learn. The Concertina! It's so neat, a lovely sight, and has such a bright and friendly timbre. No wonder after hearing players like Ernestine Healy, Edel Fox, Noel Hill, and Caitlin Nic Gabhann, I fall in love with it.

 

Last night I checked out the list "Current makes of concertina" and hadn't realized there were so many, and so many variations. It's wild!(Thanks for making that for us Daniel Hersh) But as I looked through the list and read about them, I just got more and more confused about which concertina would be right for me.

 

Here's the thing. I've been a pianist for 16 years now, and it has proven difficult for me to transition to less "intuitive" instruments(Learning fretless bowed instruments is NO joke). I've been playing fiddle for almost 5 years now and it's been very difficult, but very rewarding. I love the piano and fiddle and glad I stuck with them. Given all that, i'm excited about moving on to another keyed instrument, but very intimidated by learning a single-action bellows instrument. From what i've read, the English seems like the obvious choice. But here's the plot twist... I would be playing Irish music exclusively on the concertina. With that, I would have to consider the Anglo. What makes the idea of learning the Anglo even more significant is the fact that I wasn't raised in Irish music and am still learning about the "lilt" and "lift". I understand how important it is for Irish music and I hear it in the accent of the Anglo concertina. That complicates the decision for me.

 

When I make a decision on concertina, i'm sticking to it. The same system and the same number of buttons. So much time and money to invest in a new instrument, I wanna make the right choice. I'm sure that you folks have some very valuable opinions and I look forward to your input :) Thank you for your time! Cheers!

 

Other questions:

Are there any entry level concertinas made with concertina reeds?

Do the concertinas with accordion reeds still have a distinct sound from accordions?

Can the same note be found in two different places like on stringed instruments?

Fellow beginners, what has your experience been with your concertina?

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The only way to get started and to discover whether the Concertina is for you is to get hold of the best instrument that you can comfortably afford and give it a go. If you are leaning towards Irish Traditional Music look for a simple, basic Anglo instrument and see how you get on. There's time to go into detail later.

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Rod's quite correct. I play English system and would usually recommend that system to anyone, but ...

 

All the concertina players you mention are anglo players, so it's obviously the anglo you're aspiring to.

 

Additionally if you are concentrating on Irish traditional music, the anglo is established as the de facto system for that style of music, so much so that in Irish trad circles the word 'concertina' is used without reference to the fact that it's an anglo system. There's been a recent thread on here about playing Irish on the English and (as a non-Irish specialist) it all sounds just fine to me, but the received wisdom is that the anglo system is best suited for Irish music, and unless you're confident enough to swim against that tide you're better off just going with it.

 

English system is brilliant for what I play (mainly English and French, with some Swedish and other traditions and some non-trad stuff) ... but if it's the Irish you're aiming at, you're looking at either learning to play anglo, or spend ages defending your choice of alternative system.

 

General opinion for any beginner concertina is the Concertina Connection series; the Rochelle is the anglo model. Unless you've got serious money you're prepared to invest in buying a box for finding out whether playing concertina is for you, the Rochelle will get you plenty far enough down that road before you need to get into thinking about spending thousands on a better quality box.

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I've been playing Irish music on piano and fiddle for 3 and a half years now and i'll definitely be playing it for the rest of my life. That decision has already been made. I couldn't imagine playing anything else on the concertina.

 

"the Rochelle will get you plenty far enough down that road before you need to get into thinking about spending thousands on a better quality box."

 

Really now? That's quite a statement. I've been trying to find sound clips of it but there's nothing like hearing and touching the instrument live. With cheaper instruments there's always that fear of it being too harsh, not being able to stay in tune, and it's technical playability. But from what i've read and heard, the Rochelle seems like not only the best option, but a good option all around.

 

Greg, thanks. I'll be replying to your message shortly.

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Hello and welcome.

Great advice has already been given.

Since you are in Kentucky by all means get up Greg and get your hands

on both types. You can certainly play ITM on either EC or Anglo.

I recommend anglo, but it may suit you better to go EC with your piano

background. We are blessed to have both types in our house, but I can't get

over the funky ergonomics of the EC. And I wish I could, Irish is my primary genre

but there is plenty of chromatic music that I find attractive.

Anyways, once you decide which system works for you buy the best you can afford.

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Thanks maki. The best I can afford in the near future is the Rochelle. My biggest concern is, does it sound like a toy or a real instrument?

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Hi Jerone...

 

I'm a new player myself and I faced the same indecision when trying to decide between English or Anglo. I also seriously considered a Rochelle but, after listening to as much concertina music as I could and watching many players on YouTube, I felt that the Anglo was the one for me… just a gut feeling really, nothing too scientific, I just like the 'bounce', or vitality of it. Then, after listening to sound files of various new concertinas that were within my price bracket, I decided to go for an original concertina, an old (1885) Lachenal 20 buttoned Anglo, which costs about the same as a new, cheap model, and because of it's authentic sound and my love of character, history, and beautiful objects. I have only been playing for about 4 - 5 weeks and I love it, I love the sound and the way it feels in my hands, and I'm very pleased with my decision. I have plans to move on to a 30 buttoned Anglo at a later date, but for the time being I'm very happy. I guess it's been said many times before but, at the end of the day you have to choose what feels right to you, and I'm sure you will make the right decision once you try out a few concertinas… welcome to the forum by the way!

 

Cheers, John

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Thanks maki. The best I can afford in the near future is the Rochelle. My biggest concern is, does it sound like a toy or a real instrument?

I don't own one so I can't say exactly.

A year and a half ago when I started researching it seemed that they were good enough to buy.

I was very close to purchasing one when an offer too good to refuse came my way.

You can some times find a used one at a good price, but not often and

not for long. They tend to be in demand at those prices.

What I've read is that they sound like accordions which is typical of any

hybrid concertina. They are somewhat larger than most with a fit and

finish you would expect from a budget instrument.

The most serious criticism seems to be stiff bellows.

I think that the question you need to ask yourself is how long you will

be happy with a budget instrument, seeing as how you are not a musical n00b.

And BTW, you can rent a Rochelle from The Button Box. Not cheap but you

can get a test drive. So to speak

Same goes for thr EC Jackie.

http://www.buttonbox.com/

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"I think that the question you need to ask yourself is how long you will

be happy with a budget instrument, seeing as how you are not a musical n00b."

 

I think i've learned to manage. I've gone through several piano keyboards throughout the years and am very excited to be replacing my stand-up piano this year. I also started fiddle on an entry instrument. But from my experience with the entry fiddle, it was very difficult to play because of it's poor setup and really high action. I really took off when I got a better fiddle.

 

I think I may be able to deal with the tone of the Rochelle, it being an acoustic instrument with it's own sound, rather than a sound effected by your finger calluses or bow technique lol.

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Bob Tedrow offers a tweaked Rochelle.

It was the one that I almost bought.

 

http://hmi.homewood.net/rochelle2/

 

"The Rochelle Anglo Concertina is a great little piece of gear. There are a few small modifications that I feel make it even better.

Enlarge pilot holes in endplates

lubricate retaining screws

enlarge air vent, install larger pad

Cut and install thicker hand straps"

 

You will certainly be able to get some of your money

back if you start on a Rochelle and decide to upgrade later.

Edited by maki
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I had a long history of musical dead ends: harmonic, melodeon, trumpet, piano, guitar... then started Anglo on a Rochelle. It was good enough to get me interested but I upgraded to a Marcus within weeks and now have a Jeffries and a Dipper.

 

I have a general theory that money saved by buying cheap instruments is wasted, but the Rochelle was a useful stepping stone because I doubt I would have bought the Marcus at about £1,500 just to see if I liked it.

 

The Anglo is very versatile. It seems to be the instrument of choice, rather than the English, for Irish traditional music. It is quirkily intuitive but less logical than the English. I know people who play Irish on the English - it can be done.

 

Sounds to me like the original poster has an Anglo in mind. If you're already a musician and you trust your determination to succeed, I would consider bypassing the Rochelle and go for something better straight away. Once I got the Marcus, I never played the Rochelle again even though it was in different keys. Once I got the Jeffries, I hardly played the Marcus again, and once I got the Dipper (same keys as the Marcus), the Marcus pretty much went on the shelf.

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Thanks for that bit Mikefule. Since money is definitely the determining factor for me, I think the Rochelle may be a great choice because ConcertinaConnection does offer it's full-value trade in. My idea is that I could be learning the Rochelle while saving up for a better instrument, instead of starting concertina months or years from now because I couldn't afford a higher model at first.

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Thanks for that bit Mikefule. Since money is definitely the determining factor for me, I think the Rochelle may be a great choice because ConcertinaConnection does offer it's full-value trade in. My idea is that I could be learning the Rochelle while saving up for a better instrument, instead of starting concertina months or years from now because I couldn't afford a higher model at first.

That's a route many people take and the full value trade in is on the very well

thought of Morse line of concertinas.

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i'm going to add two cents in favor of postponing your start-off long enough to save up for something better than a Rochelle. if you really truly have no clue whether you'll stick with concertina, or you're concerned you might not be able to get on with the Anglo, the Rochelle route might be advisable.

 

But if you have a strong sense as to which system, and a strong sense you'd be in it for the long haul....really, a good-quality accordion-reeded instrument of the Morse, Marcus, Edgely, Tedrow, etc., level, or a very playable lachenal concertina--is going to serve you better as a so-called "starter." a THIRTY button, NOT a 20. you are a pianist, you are already beyond the 20-button group. it would drive you nuts in a very short time. Watch the Button Box's Anglo listings. They often have used models of their Anglo concertina, the "Ceili" model They also get Lachenal Anglos. But most of all, I strongly endorse that visit to Greg. You are in a great position being so close to a knowledgeable and honorable concertina wizard with all kinds of examples to introduce you to.

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Ditto for all the previous posts. As a piano player you will probably like the Anglo better, since it has the same basic arrangement of lower notes on the left hand and higher notes on the right, simple 1-3-5 chords if you want, etc. Of course there's that whole in-out thing but once you get used to it it's actually quite efficient getting two notes for one button. There is some offset in notes between the rows since they are two different scales, and then there's the crazy top/third row of accidentals which you only end up using some of the notes regularly anyway, but I think overall it's a bit more intuitive than the EC's alternating note pattern.

 

Since you are already a musician, like ceemonster just wrote, I would also highly recommend something better than a starter instrument. If it turns out you don't like it, you'll very likely be able to resell it for close to the original price so that's a small price to pay for learning on and enjoying playing something better. I paid $1500 for my Herrington hybrid several years ago, and wouldn't part with it for the world. It's taken loads of playing abuse and plays better now than the day I bought it. The other hybrids out there are pretty well-built for the most part, but will have varying degrees of tone (some are mellower and quieter than others), so do shop around. If you can go to any sessions or festivals or concertina gatherings you'll have a chance to try lots of different ones. I don't know what Greg J. has in stock right now, but he's an excellent resource fairly close to you.

 

Best of luck to you!

 

Gary

Edited by gcoover
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Are there any entry level concertinas made with concertina reeds?

Not new ones, but you may be able to get a lower-end restored Lachenal or Jones at a pretty reasonable price (much less than you'd pay for a new accordion-reeded hybrid).

 

Do the concertinas with accordion reeds still have a distinct sound from accordions?

Yes, but the sound is also distinct from the sound of a concertina with concertina reeds.

 

Can the same note be found in two different places like on stringed instruments?

On an Anglo, yes for many notes, especially in the middle of the range, but not for all notes, and there are some notes at the lower end of the range, such as the D and F# below middle C, that aren't on even a 30-button Anglo.

 

 

That's a route many people take and the full value trade in is on the very well thought of Morse line of concertinas.

 

I believe that this is only true if you buy your Rochelle from Button Box, who make the Morse.

 

i'm going to add two cents in favor of postponing your start-off long enough to save up for something better than a Rochelle. if you really truly have no clue whether you'll stick with concertina, or you're concerned you might not be able to get on with the Anglo, the Rochelle route might be advisable.

 

But if you have a strong sense as to which system, and a strong sense you'd be in it for the long haul....really, a good-quality accordion-reeded instrument of the Morse, Marcus, Edgely, Tedrow, etc., level, or a very playable lachenal concertina--is going to serve you better as a so-called "starter." a THIRTY button, NOT a 20. you are a pianist, you are already beyond the 20-button group. it would drive you nuts in a very short time. Watch the Button Box's Anglo listings. They often have used models of their Anglo concertina, the "Ceili" model They also get Lachenal Anglos. But most of all, I strongly endorse that visit to Greg. You are in a great position being so close to a knowledgeable and honorable concertina wizard with all kinds of examples to introduce you to.

 

These are all excellent points. You might not need a full 30 button, but you definitely want more than 20 - a 20-button C/G Anglo has no C#, which is a crucial note in many Irish tunes. You might be ok with a 26 or 28 button, or possibly even a 22 or 24, and that would get the price closer to the range you want.

Edited by Daniel Hersh
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Ceemonster is right about how I feel about missing notes. My head almost exploded when trying to play some slow airs on a harmonica. I couldn't wrap my hand around why would one note be doubled, but one note missing. I haven't touched that harmonica in probably a year.

 

Missing low notes and high notes isn't completely devastating. But I would need all the notes of the chromatic scale around middle C. Life just isn't the same without them. But transposing isn't new to me so if there were diatonic scales that had all the notes, I could surely compromise. Not to mention I would be learning Irish concertina repertoire so I don't think there would be much of an issue of missing notes?

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