Crane Duet System Concertina

[JimLucas]

the row of tonic bass notes on the left-hand stradella bass system for PA and CBA are the same kind of deal. the note to one side of a given tonic bass note is its fifth. the note to the other side of that same tonic is that same tonic's fourth. not pitch-wise. note-name-wise.

That's true as far as it goes, but as soon as you add such words as "up", "down", "above", or "below", you're talking about something different. I.e., the button below D (on the English) is G, which is "the fourth" of the D scale, but it's not "a fourth" below; it's a fifth below.

I think ceemonster is getting into difficulties here by not distinguishing between notes in the scale and chords in the harmonic structure.

I agree.

 

Specific notes in a specific octave can be a fifth apart, e.g the G above middle C is a fifth above middle C; and reciprocally, that C is a fourth below that G.

But please reread what you wrote above. You've just repeated his mistake.

 

The interval between G and the C below it is a fifth, whether you're going from C to G or from G to C. The interval between G and the C above it is a fourth, whether you're going from C to G or from G to C. Yes, in terms of chords C is the "fourth" of the G scale, but that name is derived from the process of counting up from the tonic* -- i.e., from G up to C, -- never down.

 

Noting that the first note is always counted as "one" (the "first"??), then counting from C up to G is a fifth (C=1, D=2, E=3, F=4, G=5), and counting from G down to C (same C and same G) is still a fifth (G=1, F=2, E=3, D=4, C=5). Counting from C down to G is a fourth (C=1, B=2, A=3, G=4), and it's also a fourth going the other direction, but in that case the C is above the G, where in the first example the C is below the G. Can't be both the same C and the same G.**

 

* The "tonic" is the do of do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti.

** Unless it's on an instrument designed by M.C. Escher.

Edited only to fix some formatting.

Edited October 30, 2014 by JimLucas

[ceemonster]

[[i think ceemonster is getting into difficulties here by not distinguishing between notes in the scale and chords in the harmonic structure.]]

 

we create our own narrative lines, which become neural pathways, according to what works, and it's working fine and dandy thus far. someone else will create a different web or matrix in their head to make it work for them.

[JimLucas]

[[i think ceemonster is getting into difficulties here by not distinguishing between notes in the scale and chords in the harmonic structure.]]

 

we create our own narrative lines, which become neural pathways, according to what works, and it's working fine and dandy thus far. someone else will create a different web or matrix in their head to make it work for them.

 

If it works for you when you're alone, that's fine, but if you want to communicate with the rest of us, I recommend that you learn to use the terminology that's been the accepted standard for centuries.

[Kurt Braun]

I have to say that my favorite thing about playing a Crane is wonderful camaraderie and helpful fellowship among the the players, experts and students of the instrument.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

@Stradella: thinking about this particular system as "up a fifth, down a fourth" name-wise is completely reasonable, as Stradella system spans only a single octave and notes are arranged by a circle of fifths/fourths relations and not fifth interval - there are jumps that goes to lower pitch while still following "up a fifth" logic. It is the same logic in which Pythagorean tuning is made - each step of a scale is achieved by a fifth step up, but then "compressed" back into a single octave.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Łukasz Martynowicz

[Vince Rutland]

My daughter has just moved in to an old weaver's house in Macclesfield and found a copy of the patent certificate for the Crane Duet concertina, which reveals it to be the very address where John Butterworth invented the instrument in 1896!  So I'd be really interested in obtaining one to learn, does anyone have any ideas about one which might be available at a reasonable cost?  It would be something a bit different from my collection of melodeons!  It was quite a feeling to be sitting in the room he would most likely have made and then played the instrument, all those years ago.  I'd love to hear from anyone who could tell me a bit more about the Crane/Triumph concertina at vincerutland21@gmail.com

[Little John]

What a fascination and lucky discovery!

 

As regards obtaining a Crane duet, you could try asking in the buy and sell section of this forum and/or you could try Barleycorn Concertinas. They have the largest selection of concertinas for sale in the world and are not too far from you. That said, Cranes are comparatively rare and Barleycorn might have only one or two, or even none at all!

[Richard Mellish]

There's a very nice large one (Crabb 67 key) in the buy and sell section right now, but the mention of a PM means that it may already be finding a new home.

[SteveS]

On 1/31/2023 at 1:04 AM, Vince Rutland said:

My daughter has just moved in to an old weaver's house in Macclesfield and found a copy of the patent certificate for the Crane Duet concertina, which reveals it to be the very address where John Butterworth invented the instrument in 1896!  So I'd be really interested in obtaining one to learn, does anyone have any ideas about one which might be available at a reasonable cost?  It would be something a bit different from my collection of melodeons!  It was quite a feeling to be sitting in the room he would most likely have made and then played the instrument, all those years ago.  I'd love to hear from anyone who could tell me a bit more about the Crane/Triumph concertina at vincerutland21@gmail.com

What a super find. 

Can you maybe scan the document and make it available to the International Concertina Association library?

I'd also appreciate a copy for my own records and research.

Thanks

[wes williams]

2 minutes ago, SteveS said:

What a super find. 

Can you maybe scan the document and make it available to the International Concertina Association library?

I'd also appreciate a copy for my own records and research.

Thanks

Steve - Go to http://www.concertina.com/crane-duet/index.htm for the Butterworth patent, and the Crane tutor of the same year.

[seanc]

On 1/30/2023 at 7:04 PM, Vince Rutland said:

I'd love to hear from anyone who could tell me a bit more about the Crane/Triumph concertina at vincerutland21@gmail.com

 

Vince, 

it may be helpful if you let us know know specifically what kind of info you are looking for. 

 

What I would say (in my limited experience) is that of the "major/ common" duet systems (Hayden/ maccan/ Crane). You are likely to find that Crane is the least popular.

 

Hayden is the current "modern" offering. And could be ramping up with modem builders making current instruments.  This will generally, lead to more learning resources and teachers.

 

Maccan, which ( I think) was the most popular in the Concertina heyday. You will find the most offerings of instruments at the least pricing.

 

Crane, tends to be the black sheep. Offerings are slim. Learning resources are not plentiful. BUT, at least to me coming from EC. The system just makes sense and clicks. And I feel like I am making progress. And I really like it.

 

If you are looking for a Crane, Look here, Facebook, Barley corn, etc. But, those will all be vintage/ old and used instruments, so quality, use/ abuse, repairs will all be part of the journey. You may seriously consider looking at Edward Jay's modern offerings. It is NOT traditional. But would be a brand new instrument. And That does have a lot going for it.

 

As Cranes tend to be difficult to find. Putting down the money up front (rather than starting cheap and trading up) may be a better short/ medium term solution.

 

[Vince Rutland]

Thanks for all these replies, they are much appreciated!  The historical information is (sadly) nothing news, just what's on the https://crane.concertina.org/history.html website and links from it.  It's still great to learn about people who walked the same (stone) floors well over a century ago though.  I'll try the various suppliers you suggested but the need for something of moderate price will be partly to keep the Household Authorities sweet after spending £5k+ on new melodeons in recent years!!  Maybe my Anglo will have to go to make way for a Crane....

[seanc]

I think you might ask saguaro squeezer. Iirc he had 2 small cranes for sale.

if that is the direction you want to go, it may be worth asking him.

 

[Vince Rutland]

10 hours ago, seanc said:

I think you might ask saguaro squeezer. Iirc he had 2 small cranes for sale.

if that is the direction you want to go, it may be worth asking him.

 

Thanks - I'm not sure how to contact him?  Can I do it through here?

[seanc]

29 minutes ago, Vince Rutland said:

Thanks - I'm not sure how to contact him?  Can I do it through here?

Yes. Check the buy sell forum. saguaro_squeezer