Which Newbie Concertina?

[chendrum]

Hello!

 

I'm a newbie to the concertina world, and would love a little advice.

 

I recently bought a Hoener D40/20/9 in the key of C/G from Sam Ashe. I spent $260; they usually go for $305 retail. There were a couple loose screws holding on the straps, and the wood on the ends looks like particle board; I can see little splinters along the wood work. All that said, I love the sound so far, and am enjoying learning the instrument. I have 25 days left of my 30 days return policy.

 

I can't seem to find anyone within 100 miles that has even heard of a concertina (much less, has one), so I think my options for a new one would have to be to buy online (which scares me).

 

I'd primarily like to play hymns and Christmas caroling... maybe a pirate shanty or two.

 

So, to my questions:

 

1. Should I return the Hoener immediately because of the quality of the construction? Or stick with it until I can play fairly well, and then upgrade?

2. Is a 20-button sufficient to play hymns/Christmas songs, or should I look for a 30+ button?

3. Should I play an Anglo or English for this style of music? I enjoy the diatonic so far, but don't know if playing hymns is feasible with one.

4. Is there a specific key I should be looking for for the instrument?

5. Are there any suggestions on where to go or who to meet to find Concertina players in Southern California? I'm near Murrieta; a town in Riverside county between San Diego and Los Angeles.

 

Thanks ahead of time! I've already learned so much browsing these forums!

[gcoover]

Welcome! You've come to the right place for answers and assistance. There's a concertina group that meets in San Diego - I'm sure they will weigh in when they see your post, or you can search the forums for their contact info.

 

If cost is a factor, it's probably good to stick with your C/G and then upgrade later as you get more proficient. C/G is by far the most common arrangement, and all of the tutors are written for C/G, but for a deeper sound many prefer the G/D.

 

Hymns can be played on both EC and Anglo, but you'll get fuller chords with the Anglo. You can actually play quite a few with a 20-button instrument, but of course you will need to play in the keys you've got, not what's printed in the hymnbook.

 

Shameless Plug Alert: you might want to check out "Christmas Concertina" for Anglo - there are sample pages in these forums and through the Amazon "Look Inside" feature, and "Civil War Concertina" is strictly for 20-button C/G Anglo. All the tunes in both books are also linked to YouTube videos.

 

Hope this helps! Enjoy your voyage of discovery - it's a frustrating little instrument at first, but then part of the fun is seeing just how much you get out of it in spite of the limitations. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

Gary

[Wolf Molkentin]

Hymns can be played on both EC and Anglo, but you'll get fuller chords with the Anglo.

 

Really, Gary?

 

I'd say, you can choose any system (EC, Anglo, Duet) you find appropriate...

 

Welcome from me too, and best wishes - Wolf

[Wolf Molkentin]

1. Should I return the Hoener immediately because of the quality of the construction? Or stick with it until I can play fairly well, and then upgrade?

 

Stick with it until you don't feel comfortable with it.

 

2. Is a 20-button sufficient to play hymns/Christmas songs, or should I look for a 30+ button?

 

You will be able to play in two keys and their relative minors (or modes), in one key - C (maj) - you could even modulate the harmonies through Dmaj7 to Gmaj, and as mentioned, Gary is proving how much can be done with such an instrument with his book...

 

3. Should I play an Anglo or English for this style of music? I enjoy the diatonic so far, but don't know if playing hymns is feasible with one.

 

There is no reason for swapping the Anglo with an English except for personal preference; I myself like the English among other things for its basic empty-fifths patttern.

 

 

4. Is there a specific key I should be looking for for the instrument?

 

C and G, A and E minor (D and A dorian, G and D mixolydian) , obviously...

 

(if there should be one of these two options preferable others will know)

[emwardjr]

What you now have is a good start. You can always upgrade as time goes by. I play an AC (and sing along) at various open mic's around. As long as you can sing in the key of C or G you will be fine. Twenty buttons will work fine also. Try and work on singing along with your playing (carols, folk songs, etc). You can get by using an AC, but an EC allows playing in many other keys. Lots of good advice here on this forum, and Youtube.

 

Have fun!

[GregHankins]

Fellow newbie here. If you love the sound, you might want to stick with what you've got. I haven't played a Hohner so I can't really comment on those. I started on a Bastari and quickly moved on to a Rochelle, which I bought secondhand on Cnet -- (shameless plug) and which I am about to put up for sale on Cnet, having moved on to a Lachenal.

 

I liked the Rochelle much better than the Bastari, because it has plenty of air in its big bellows (important for newbies -- particularly for newbies playing chords -- who haven't learned all they need to know about how to avoid running out of air.) The action is solid and uses the standard spacing, which is good when you want to move up. The Rochelle also sounds good. It is, however, big, black, and homely.

 

You can buy one new from the Button Box for $415, and, if you later want to buy one of their Morse concertinas, you can trade it back for credit. Or you can probably pick up one a good bit cheaper used on Cnet. Even if you don't trade the Rochelle back to the Button Box, you're likely to get more for it used that for a Hohner, IMHO.

 

I've bought three concertinas that have been shipped through the mail (as well as one melodeon). None have been damaged, but three of the boxes have required that I open them up and clear a bit of fluff out of the reeds that got stirred up while being tossed about in the postal or UPS truck. It was not hard to do that, but it would be scary if you're not the sort whose comfortable fiddling in the innards of a strange machine. Coincidentally, the Rochelle was the only one of my four boxes that didn't require post-shipping fluff extraction.

 

Good luck!

 

And welcome to the club.

 

Greg

[Wolf Molkentin]

I liked the Rochelle much better than the Bastari, because it has plenty of air in its big bellows (important for newbies -- particularly for newbies playing chords -- who haven't learned all they need to know about how to avoid running out of air.) The action is solid and uses the standard spacing, which is good when you want to move up. The Rochelle also sounds good. It is, however, big, black, and homely.

 

Your Hohner Anglo will quite likely be similar to a Bastari - OTOH the Rochelle (while sounding a bit different I'd guess) has 30 buttons as opposed to your 20b Hohner, i.e. more accidentals (which results in more keys playable).

 

(edited to clarify that I'm addressing the OP here)

Edited August 21, 2014 by blue eyed sailor

[Anglo-Irishman]

Chendrum,

 

Sure, a 20-button in C/G can be used to lead hymn-singing and carols. I did that as a youngster on an old East German 20-button. I even played for a Sunday service once - albeit in a small country church that our youth group was visiting!

It has been pointed out that your choice of key is limited to C or G (and relative keys), but when you're leading singing alone, you get to choose the key, and either C or G will accommadate the average voice.

As gcoover pointed out, rich chords are easier on an Anglo than on an English - at least for the beginner! The button or buttons to the left of the button that's being pressed for the melody note are seldom wrong, and often harmonically pleasing. (On other concertina systems, you need a bit of music theory to form correct harmonies, or you need to be able to read music.)

 

I'd second the recommendation to stick to your 20-button until either it gives up the ghost (as cheap concertinas can do all too soon), or you get the feeling that you can exploit it to the full and could do more if you had more buttons.

By that time you'll probably know whether you need a cheap, beginners' 30-button, or a more (or even very) expensive instrument that will do you for the rest of your playing life.

 

At any rate, have fun!

 

Cheers,

John

[chendrum]

Thanks all for the advice and suggestions!

 

Based on the advice, I think I'm going to stick with an Anglo in C/G.

 

I'm convinced I need to return this Hoener. The small problems are scaring me and I'm afraid to play it. I'm looking to upgrade to a better quality 20 button or a 30 button. Anyone have a spare for sale, (preferably in Southern California)?

 

Thanks again!

[MatthewVanitas]

Can you clarify to us what problems it's showing? You mention a few screws that needed to be tightened on the straps, and some rough wood. These instruments are made of plywood with a wood-veneer on top of it, so at some seems you can see the plywood exposed, so that's normal. Is it playing okay overall?

 

 

If Sam Ash is reasonable about their returns (and/or just takes returns unquestioned like many big-box stores), is there any harm in trying it out a little longer to get a feel for it? No difference between returning it on day 5 or on day 25?

 

I think eventually returning before day 30 does sound reasonable though; if you decide you need more buttons, you could put the money towards a Rochelle. If however you find that 20 buttons suits you well, for not much more than a Rochelle you could buy a vintage 20-button Anglo from a repairer like Greg Jowaisas. I know for a lot of folks here 20 buttons isn't enough, but if you're primarily doing hymns and folksongs, and largely in settings where you can choose the key to fit what you can play (that is, not in a bad where others will demand you do the next tune in key of D), then a vintage 20b C/G might suit you quite well. Also any vintage concertina under 30 buttons has a markedly lower price (since the Irish players snap up all the 30b), so a 20b (or the odd 24b, 26b, etc) instruments can be real bargains.

 

 

So far as sticking with Anglo: if you're finding the harmonica-like "in-and-out" of the Anglo to provide you intuitive chords and harmonies, that's exactly what it's for, so I'd stick with what works!

[chendrum]

I have just a few concerns based on small things that I see on the outside. I'm just nervous that what little I see on the outside is reflective of their construction standards on the inside.

 

Anyway, here's what I see:

 

Here's the strap. The screw that held it on was very loose; I tightened it:

 

Here's a picture of the plywood splinters:

 

Here's a picture of some tearing on the bellows:

 

It seems to be playing ok for the most part. I've only noticed one note that's a little off-key; my wife couldn't hear the difference when I pointed it out.

[Ken_Coles]

I played 20-button C/G for five years and even went to week-long concertina school twice with one. You have many open fifths on a 20 C/G, and those worked as well for me as full chords: B, D, E, F, A, etc. I could back up folk tunes in any number of keys, just not play every melody note. And open fifths work for both major and minor chords! I learned to follow a guitar player choosing chords (reading her/his fingers), a new skill for me in spite of three decades playing brass instruments from sheet music. Musically you can do and learn a lot if that is what you have.

 

The only thing that looks unusual to me is the bellows tear, though it may still be airtight. Whether that is a defect or wear-and-tear is up to the retailer. If they take it back someone else will buy it and come here posting the same questions!

 

Have fun, we all started on clunky instruments,

Ken

[Wolf Molkentin]

With the pics in mind I would face mainly the buttons and levers. With older used instruments there's a huge problem as to crumbling plastic tubes. However, if the instrument is newly made, this might not occur for years.

 

OTOH I wouldn't tolerate a single reed being out of tune in a new instrument, you would have to send it back either for a refund or a repair on the expense of the seller.