Old Anglo On Ebay

[Jay]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...gory=16218&rd=1

 

Looks interesting. Been up for three days with no bids yet. This might be a worthwhile restoration project if a person could pick it up cheaply enough, and it isn't wormy. What do you think?

 

-Jay

[Chris Timson]

Well, fully restored and in good condition and *IF* it's a C/G in modern pitch, a Lachenal rosewood-ended jobby like this would be worth perhaps $1600. There's so much about eBay boxes we don't know...

 

Chris

[Michael Reid]

The description almost reads like a parody of an archetypal eBay post: Someone is selling something old, and he hasn't the foggiest idea what it really is ... but it's "rare," an "outstanding" example, in "exceptional" condition, and "would make a fantastic addition to your collection." Sheesh.

[Paul Groff]

Jay - Excellent spot. This was a good model when originally made and one of the types I prefer for top quality upgrade/rebuilds. The issue will be its current condition, as others have noted.

 

Chris- You may do both potential buyers and sellers a disservice with such casual appraisals. One might as well write from the U. S. that a Martin guitar in England should be about 400 pounds sterling. I know that English concertina dealers for years maintained fairly standard prices for "done up" examples of common models, but as the price of the instruments has risen (even in England, where in general they are the cheapest) it has become important to recognize how different one rosewood 32 key Lachenal anglo (for instance) can be from another. I think the reputable English dealers would now agree with me about this. One rosewood 32 may be in great cosmetic shape but may have started life with a badly made set of reeds, another may have been a great instrument originally but suffered from storage conditions (mildew, rust, worm -- or warping and cracking), another may have been played until it looks like a flat-worn penny -- and sound great --, another may have just had a bad retuning job to get it sold at "market price", spoiling the reeds ... With great respect for your knowledge of the instrument and your very fortunate geographic position, so near the Dippers and in the concertina's country of origin, I would like you to consider the possibility that the mindset that "this model is this price once it has gone through the sausage mill" has done a lot of damage. What I care about is preserving and bringing out what is valuable in an instrument, which may be different for different examples.

Some can be knocked together as "learners" to be sold inexpensively, but some deserve better.

 

Re: this instrument, I personally would turn your appraisal on its head and argue the instrument is most interesting if it is not in C/G and has never been retuned. In fact if the woodwork and reeds are in perfect condition, in original tuning (probably high pitch) with no modern restoration, I would pay more (in trade toward a rebuilt instrument) than for many "restored" instruments I have seen. That is because, with the help of craftsman friends and my own work, it could become something special rather than a workhorse "learner." Of course, someone else might have other plans for it, and value it accordingly. But this is my point -- that there is more than one way to envision the value (hence plan the restoration and use) of an instrument.

 

Michael -- It is infuriating when ignorant sellers pretend knowledge to hype their stuff. Or when people who know exactly what they have pretend ignorance to avoid responsibility for defects in their stuff. On the other hand, this seller is probably also ignorant of the demand for good concertinas and thus how much they bring at auction. Evidently, he or she was willing to let this little sweetheart go for a song.

 

Paul

[Chris Timson]

I'm sorry, Paul, I can't see what your problem is. My appraisal was in no way casual. I know that $1600 is the going rate for a fully restored 32-button rosewood-ended Lachenal C/G, because that's what I paid for one less than two months ago from a dealer (Chris Algar) with international scope. They are delightful instruments. My first anglo was one of these, and I have always regretted selling it, which is why I have bought another. I considered, and still consider, that if you are going to spend some time and effort doing up a concertina, then its eventual cash value must have some bearing on how much you would be willing to pay for it in the first place. And I personally wouldn't bid for this one because I don't know enough about it.

 

Chris

[Greyboy]

I agree with Paul that the condition, and therefore the true value of apparently similar concertinas can differ very widely. I've handled "restored" concertinas that had in reality been badly damaged by the amateur restorer. One of the first questions I will ask a seller of a vintage concertina, is whether it has been restored or retuned. The best quality concertinas are the ones I find in original condition; they are also much easier to refurbish to "as new" state.

 

Chris, you appear to agree with this view, when stating that you did not know enough about the Lachenal in question to bid on it? And no, I'm not bidding either!

 

My favourite playing concertina is a 1930s 30-key Wheatstone in original pitch - the reeds apparently have not been touched since they were installed and they have a super tone quality unlike any other I've heard. I also have an English Wheatstone of 1860s vintage, in original, unrestored but playable condition - this concertina is more valuable (imho) in its present state, than if 'refurbished'.

[Chris Timson]

I agree with Paul that the condition, and therefore the true value of apparently similar concertinas can differ very widely. 

Well, yes, of course. And if you drop an apple it falls to the ground.

 

I still cannot see what problem you and Paul appear to have with my original posting.

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

The best quality concertinas are the ones I find in original condition;

But not all those which are unrestored are "best quality"... not even if they were originally. And you really can't tell from the pictures on eBay, or even further details provided by the seller, which are which. Seems to me that's what Chris means. And I know from experience that he's right.

[Paul Groff]

Dear Chris

 

Like you, I feel I said it all in my first post to this topic, and do not want to get into a negative back-and-forth. I value your knowledge and opinions highly and am sure we hold many more views in common than differing views. However, you twice asked for clarification of my disagreement here, so here goes:

 

What does "fully restored" mean? For most musical instruments this means a very intensive effort to return the instrument to its state when new. Repitching from high pitch to A440, while routine among concertina dealers and repairmen, could hardly be considered a careful return to original state. Not everyone will agree, but some among us, including one other, contributor to this topic, think we prefer the sound of reeds with original "factory' reedwork to the work of (at least some) modern tuners. Also the temperament of many older anglos was different from that used by most modern tuners. As another contributor pointed out, so called "restored" or even "fully restored" concertinas can be much worse sounding and playing than when new. Does the term imply new bellows? Perhaps to some. New springs? New pads? New valves? New bushings? Or it just mean "up and running well enough to please the average amateur." In fact, it could mean any of these depending on the seller. And even the same seller might use these words to describe two instruments, one lovely and one much less so.

 

I am delighted you got a nice rosewood 32 from Chris Algar for 1000 pounds or so. I will always be grateful to him for selling me my first concertina, also a rosewood 32, for about 120 pounds in 1985. I suspect if really good rosewood 32s were always available in the US for the price you paid there would be much less need for the Morse Ceili, the Herrington, the Edgely, the O'Shaughnessy, and the Homewood. I sold a lot of these Lachenals (some bought from Chris and retuned) for $1000, 1200 etc. a few years back. But today, I don't know anyone in New England with a really nice rosewood 32 Lachenal who would want to sell it for $1600. If so, please contact me!

 

Regardless of what price you put on an old concertina, or what you would like done to it to get it working and sounding at its best (as you might define it), I think it is important to allow for the possibility that someone else may value it differently. For many years concertina dealers saw these old instruments as a "raw material" to be converted into a few saleable "types," e. g. the "fully restored dark wood 32" ( which I would say should be called the "working, repitched instrument, possibly with new pads, valves, or bellows"). I wonder if we can see now that the words "fully restored," as they have been used in the concertina trade, cover up more than they explain, and maybe even obscure what the instruments really sounded like when new.

 

Yes, I do agree that it is hard to judge the condition of an ebay instrument. But if you care about the details, there is much doubt about the condition of a "fully restored" instrument.

 

With shared affection for the instruments we love and all who make, play, and sustain them,

 

Paul

[Rhomylly]

Okay, this question has been bugging the heck out of me for a while.

 

Just what, exactly is rosewood? Or am I completely oblivious to the existence of rosewood trees?

 

In Ignorance,

Rhomylly

[Paul Groff]

Rhomylly,

 

"Rosewood" is a timber industry name for the heartwood of any of several species of tropical trees in the legume (pea) family. Not the wood of roses (genus Rosa in the rose family). Rosewood is often a beautifully figured reddish brown and it (or other woods stained to resemble it) was popular for mid- to upper range concertinas. Some prefer its appearance to the ebony (or other ebonized wood) that was used for better concertinas.

 

Paul

[Rhomylly]

Thanks Paul

 

Now I can stop looking at my scraggly old rosebushes and thinking, "naaah, no way!"

 

Edit: So is there any definitive difference between 'tinas with rosewood ends and those with ebony ends? I personally prefer the ebony look myself. Probably has a lot to do with why I think Normans are so doggone appealing, although I've never tried one. Yet.

 

Rhomylly

Edited September 17, 2003 by Rhomylly

[grumpyhermit]

Okay, this question has been bugging the heck out of me for a while.

 

Just what, exactly is rosewood? Or am I completely oblivious to the existence of rosewood trees?

 

In Ignorance,

Rhomylly

The generic term "rosewood" can refer to various species of tropical hardwoods. There are two specific types that are used in woodworking, however: Amazon Rosewood and Indian Rosewood. Amazon Rosewood is a dense, dark red wood with black streaks, similar to Cocobolo. Indian Rosewood is lighter in weight, and tends to be brown rather than red. I can't speak for their use in concertinas, as I am a newbie at that subject, but the rosewoods make fine furniture and stocks for guns and knives.

 

Bob G. Evans

 

(the newbie comes out of hiding to post)

[Clive Thorne]

but the rosewoods make fine furniture and stocks for guns and knives.

Rosewood is/was also tradionally used for guiter finger boards as a cheaper alternative to Ebony.

 

Clive.

[Chris Timson]

Dear Chris

 

Like you, I feel I said it all in my first post to this topic, and do not want to get into a negative back-and-forth.

I'm sorry, Paul, I don't think we are going to have a meeting of minds on this. I have read this post with interest, but don't feel that it changes my mind or position in any way. However, I also feel that there is little to be gained by restating my views - like you I am not a great one for the sort of ding-dong exchanges that cluttered up the old list (e.g. the ones with, how shall I say, a Swedish element to them). So I think we should stop here and let people read our prior posts and make up their own minds.

 

Very interesting discussion about rosewood, BTW.

 

Chris

[Mr. Bellows]

Well,

 

for those interested:

 

The olde concertina sold for $921 US. From my observations over the last year or so, that's about the going price ($800-1000) for a wood-ended Lachenal Anglo that looks nice but lacks any informaition from the seller indicating that the instrument is in good playing condition. Had there been assurance that it was playable, I think that it would have gone for about $1500-2000 US.

 

As in all things, a concertina is worth whatever somebody will pay for it.

[Chris Timson]

As in all things, a concertina is worth whatever somebody will pay for it.

Ain't it the truth?

 

Chris

[Paul Groff]

Yet concertinas, like trees, antique furniture, and houses, can exist for a long time and undergo surprising transformations in how (and for which of their properties) they are valued. True, a sales agreement establishes a monetary value for that moment, between the parties to the sale.

But this is like one frame out of a long movie, and may or may not reflect what is most valuable about that item over a longer time scale.

 

Think of the dead sea scrolls, which when discovered were (purportedly) initially used as a source of fuel for a cooking fire. This made perfect sense to the discoverer, who may have had no interest in archaeology, history, or comparative religion, but for whom fuel was rare and valuable. Think of all the classic antique furniture which was cleaned and altered into something desirable ca. 1900 (this was a good economic decision at that time), but whose monetary value is much less today than if it had been "conserved" or at least truly "restored," rather than reworked.

 

Who said, "[Most] men know the price of everything and the value of nothing?"

 

Everyone is entitled to view and value that concertina as he or she wishes. I would want an appraisal to reflect more than one possible use to which it might be put.

 

On to subjects of general agreement! As Chris and others have noted, ebay auctions occur in something of an information blackout, so the bids are somewhat like lottery tickets and SHOULD be expected to reach the level of wholesale prices at best. I'm amazed at the amounts gambled on these as-is concertinas. As Wes implies in another thread, an unrestored instrument will frequently sell for much more than (a restored instrument) minus (the cost of restoration). If you think about it, it's very interesting.

 

Paul

Edited September 20, 2003 by Paul Groff