Proposed Design Changes For The Ec

[Geoff Wooff]

 

comfort is a big part of it for me, but not the whole thing. i am feeling that the valves and reeds aspirate and sound most fully when "attacked" coming down at a straight angle from above, a la the "attack" on anglo. on EC, you are slanting your reach to get a good bit of the range rather than coming down square. i feel it affects the sound, the oomph or feeling of lift, and is particularly annoying, again, in those notes "south" of the thumb strap. i think that is some of where that "refined " feel comes with EC that is very nice for classical-ish, chamber-ish stuff, but not optimal for dance, session, ceili, band, etc. playing. here's to new re-design options...

So Ceemonster,

please tell us , on what models have you had problems with your Attack on notes South of the Thumbstrap ? I ask this because " not all concertinas were created equal".

 

Also, although I have pointed out on various occasions that buttons need to be approached at accute angles on the EC, it is when playing the whole keyboard that this is most apparent. When playing single line melodies ( most of what would normally be expected when playing ITM) it is easy to rotate one's hands a little to attack the low notes.

 

Of course the fifths being in line can cause some problems but each and every keyboard ( especially the chromatic ones) will have its difficult intervals. I have overcome this one, by dint of practice, but I'm sure people with large hands and thick fingers might find the EC keyboard too claustrophobic.

 

Looking at the Hand Rail for use on the EC: first a somewhat humerous suggestion is to 'Velcro' ( bande scratch, scratch band or whatever you call it in your country) the ends of the EC to your thighs, so's it does not shift around and use a sliding bridge type of hand rail that allows forward and back motion to position the fingers comfortably on an extended range keyboard.

 

Serously though, looking at the stretch needed on the Maccann I find that I have shifted the hand rails slightly so as to be able to reach all the notes and this gives me a minimum distance, from the back of the hand rail to the button centres, of 44mm and max distance of 112mm ( this on my 67 key Aeola)... I can just manage at each end of the range but find it a little cramped at the lower end and buttons being operated by almost flat angled fingers at the far reaches. Sliding my hands in and out of the straps is also needed.

Relating that to the EC; whereas my 67 Maccann has a button position range of 68mm and a 48 EC's distance from lowest to highest buttons is 62mm .

 

 

One other thing that comes to mind is that whilst my hands are engaged in playing the 48 Treble EC they pretty much cover the whole of the ends and perhaps they act as a baffle to the exiting tones whereas on my similarly sized 46 Hayden it is only half my hand that might inhibit any sound projection. I'm sure this must be similar on an Anglo... perhaps extra holes drilled in the side frames might allow more freedom to the notes of an EC ?

Edited May 16, 2014 by Geoff Wooff

[ceemonster]

i'm actually not having much trouble reaching the southern buttons or turning (well, a rotating thumb screw might be great). it's hitting them at the angle i want when going at a clip that is not always what i want. but it is getting better as i learn to anticipate those points in the tune and plan my bellows direction to allow the attack i want on those notes. the bellows direction you're going in does make a difference as to how/from what angle you come down onto certain notes, i'm finding.

 

re drilling extra holes---you mean, an augmented venting for sound? fascinating. i do note that ecs just in general don't seem as loud as anglos even when comparing wood ends to wood ends, metal-to-metal. perhaps it is indeed a venting issue. i have a morse geordie tenor with bright TAM reeds that is noticeably less loud than a wood-ended Aeola EC at my sesh, not to mention a wood-ended wally carroll anglo. both players of these other wood-end concertinas loved the sound and response of the morse tenor, but both remarked at its lesser volume, the aeola EC owner comparing it to the volume of a brass-reeded concertina.

 

and yet....i'd swear that the TAM accordion reeds in this morse don't lack for strength......maybe it IS a venting issue. very interesting indeed. i have a norman anglo that would peel paint off the walls. it is metal-ended, but that can't be the whole thing. i wonder if there is something about his construction design that is more vented.....very good thought there....

Edited May 16, 2014 by ceemonster

[Henrik Müller]

hmmm, we haven't heard from henrik yet since this branch of discussion moved to its new location.....very nice clip indeed. will this method of hand/wrist strap free of the EC thumb strap AND the EC pinkie trap work for a full complement of EC notes? or only on a somewhat attenuated set of notes such as henrik's custom instrument?

...

...

 

Oh, you will, don't worry ;-) - after the weekend.

 

Interesting questions, there - I've asked myself the same. I think it would work - if you cut the top notes so you had a 36-37 key instrument.

 

I left out the low Eb and Ab (left hand) and only recently did I realize that it was an improvement (for me): When I do rolls down there, I use the E or the A with the middle, then the index finger. Having no Eb and Ab means that there is room for the fingers when they leave their respective "roll buttons" - no other buttons in the way.

 

In the right side, I left out G#, D#, A# and Eb. I haven't found any beneficial effects from that ;-)

 

/Henrik

[ceemonster]

[[[i've asked myself the same. I think it would work - if you cut the top notes so you had a 36-37 key instrument.]]]

 

yep. that is what i'm on about. i would want all the notes. don't need the doubled chromatics, but would want one of everything. marcus does a 38-key treble minus the high notes but adding the low f# and f-natural, which is what i'd like. i think it might be doable. the box size could grow a bit, perhaps. do keep us posted....

Edited May 18, 2014 by ceemonster

[Henrik Müller]

I did a little experiment this morning. I mounted (the original) wrist straps on a Wheatstone Æeola. I set them fairly loose and had a go:

 

Yes - they do take off the load on the thumbs - one of the reasons for my experiments in 2004 with the mini Stagi was to take the load of the thumbs, because I felt that there was risk permanent damage to the joints - it was impossible to play with the emphasis I wanted and adding that with thumbs only. Lots of pain. Human physiology differs - some have thumbs joint that can take it, others don't.

 

As some of you recall (or can see here) I had thumb straps on the "Anglish" in the beginning (explanation is on the linked page). But they were abnormal in the sense that they were approx. half the width of standard straps and were placed so the thumbs should go all the way through (I always played EC with the tip of the thumb in the straps) - thus bringing them close to the main joint and so keep strain to a minimum. But taking them off was... "Oooh, yes!!"

 

So this morning, on the Æeola, I only felt annoyed of having my thumbs sitting in those strange contraptions, to no use

 

Buttons

And while we are at it: the distance between buttons.

 

On my 1909 Wheatstone, metal ended, 48 butts., vertical distance between the buttons is 10.4 mm and horizontal 12.4 mm.

On the Anglish (measures copied from the little Stagi) vertical distance between buttons is 12.3 mm and horizontal 15.5 mm.

 

And that makes a world of difference - you have to take my word for it . But honestly, I can't see any arguments for having the buttons in a cluster that tight. Yes, I can see problems with 56 buttons, but so what...

 

And they go all the way down - so the "little needles in my finger tips"-feeling that I had in the old days is gone. A matter of taste - for me it was a matter of survival. I'd stopped playing if I hadn't build that thing. That bad.

 

/Henrik

 

 

[Henrik Müller]

Slowly moving to the new thread...

- - -

 

Jim said: "Henrik, I know you feel that various of your modifications assist you in playing Irish music, but I also know that others don't feel that they need them, so your design isn't really a subtopic of "Irish on the English".

 

No, Jim is right, it isn't.

 

While some of benefits I've experienced are transferable to a (trad) EC, the "hardcore benefits" (as I, and only I, experience them: dynamic control, room for "odd fingering", more "the bellows as a bow"-thinking) belongs to the design, not to playing the EC. Thus the discussion belongs here, in "Instrument construction & Repair".

 

It is, of course, the only place to reveal that I am working on a new instrument (yes, same design, but with three more notes) and concertina reeds.

 

More of this later ;-)

 

/Henrik

[Henrik Müller]

So, to continue...

 

The first tracks successfully made:

 

Next is leveling (sanding) the pans to the same thickness (top of the walls), today, hopefully.

 

- then: rout the “inner” tracks

- then: rout air slots

- then: “the tilt” - that the top surface (the walls) is angled, so that the low notes chambers are the deepest. Not looking forward.

- then: the angles of the sides, with respect to the top surface (the walls) - to fit tightly into the bellows frame. Looking even less forward to that

 

- then: more, very cold beer

 

/Henrik

 

 

[Geoff Wooff]

Henrik,

for a sound scape closer to that of the Anglo you could keep all the wall heights the same... ie no deeper chambers for the low notes.

 

Good luck with what looks to be a fine project.

 

Geoff.

 

PS; not sure Plywood is a good idea though.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Geoff Wooff

[Henrik Müller]

Hi, Geoff -

 

What is (was) not clear, is that I am emulating, to a certain, practical degree, the reed pan in my 1909 Wheatstone, 48, ME, which has quite a "tilt" to the pan.

 

The plywood. It's aircraft plywood, very dense. My acoustic training/experience (four years at, at that time “The Danish Acoustical Institute”, Copenhagen, now part of "Delta") is guiding me there. The way I see it - the softer the walls are (like made out of solid wood), the more energy will be absorbed there. We'll see - I have a feeling that the London makers in 1860 would have loved aircraft plywood, had they seen it .

 

The reed pan itself is solid maple, 30 years old.

 

/Henrik

Edited May 23, 2014 by Henrik Müller

[David Barnert]

I have a feeling that the London makers in 1860 would have loved aircraft plywood, had they seen it .

 

Although they probably wouldn't have called it "aircraft plywood."

 

[Henrik Müller]

Although they probably wouldn't have called it "aircraft plywood."

No, that would have been a slip of the tongue by the man from the future ;-)

[Henrik Müller]

I've just acquired an EC to explore whether it has more to offer me in accompanying songs than the Anglo I play for ITM. I fooled around with it for about 45 minutes after it arrived. Next morning the base of both thumbs were really sore. So Henrik's modification interests me. I do wonder if it allows enough forward and aft movement to cover the length of a 56key EC keyboard.

 

Terry

Hi, Terry -

Talk about a late answer/comment!

 

The main characteristics of my "new" instrument are:

 

- NO THUMB STRAP

- Slightly different horizontal and vertical distances between buttons (more space horizontally).

- The buttons go all the way down - you feel the end plate when the button is depressed.

- No pinky rest.

- Hand strap - though more like an Anglo strap.

 

Now, this thing changed my life - I had stopped playing otherwise - instead I've played more than I've ever imagined!

 

In early October, I was at the Irish Festival of Oulu (Finland), with one of the main names being Caitlin Nic Gabhann. On the Saturday evening, I had a chat with her after the concert:

 

"I saw you yesterday at the session", she said - "great playing!"

 

- "Oh, thank you! But when you say that, I simply HAVE to ask "Did you notice it wasn't an Anglo concertina?""

 

"What?! It wasn't?!

 

Now, that says a lot.

----

 

I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the most significant change is and it is not so easy...

 

One thing is: a change in fingering = a total disregard of what the "right" fingering is. Practically speaking: the fingering I have developed over the last 5-6 years works 85-90% fine on a standard EC. The remaining 10-15% that don't work has to do with the "more fingering space" on my new instrument.

 

Another is the fact that buttons go all the way down. I've heard lots of comments like "Oh - horrible, I couldn't do that" - though they've never tried.

--

 

Who needs 56 buttons?! ;-) My new instrument (the one I am making now) has 30.

 

 

/Henrik

[ceemonster]

thank you for posting, it is so interesting! i like having tenor notes, but you are right....30 is fine and dandy for melody playing, particularly irish. i think so long as i had the low f-natural and the low f-sharp in addition to the 'g,' this would be elegantly sufficient....

[Wolf Molkentin]

I think so long as i had the low f-natural and the low f-sharp in addition to the 'g,' this would be elegantly sufficient....

 

I just "soldered" me a push & pull low F, didn't take much (with much valuable advice from here) - and I'm simply loving it!

 

(Would of course like to have the F# too, but it's much less an issue I'd guess)

Edited December 18, 2014 by blue eyed sailor

[d.elliott]

The Anglo has a palm rest and it' scales run parallel to the palm rest so the lateral positioning of the hand has to be relatively flexible. Where the scale then extends further it uses a different hand. Moving across the rows is more a less within reach by flexing the fingers.

 

The English system requires the player to compass several octave on each hand but requires little lateral movement of the hand. To reach the full compass of the instrument you slide your thumb and little fingers up and down, parallel to the key rows keeping the three central fingers to operate the keys. The thumb strap positions the hand relative to the key rows and allows this sliding action. the finger slide helps with the positioning, plus the bracing of the instrument to give bellows control. If you fit wrist straps then you get three points of contact on each hand. The thumb, the little finger, and the back of the hand; this gives more stability and transfers weight back up to the base of the wrist. The original thumb pain when I started umpty years ago is long forgotten, I doubt it lasted more than a few months.

 

As to restricting the compass of the concertina in general, I have several 'short' instruments, A 'G' bass, a single action baritone, and a double acting baritone, The DA Barry is 42 keys , and I have missed having the final few notes before now. The two single acting instruments are band instruments and I tend to use them for playing band arrangements where only the lower couple of octaves, so there is no problem there. Where as I see little point in the 56 key extended up trebles, I would think that players who only ever play instruments with a reduced compass will never get the opportunity to explore and play concertinas at their widest capability. Whilst I cannot claim to play up in the stratosphere ever day, or even every week, I must do something with the higher notes several times most months.

 

Pros of the thumb strap:

 

finger and hand positioning positioning

sliding the fingers along the scales

a secure grasp.

Can be used with a wrist strap

 

Con's of the Thumb strap:

 

takes a few months to get used to

beginners tend to over tighten the strap for 'security'

difficult to turn the pages of music

 

Pros of the finger slide:

 

stability & flexibility of hand location

 

Cons of the finger slide:

 

none

 

Pros of the wrist strap alone on the English system

 

I cannot say I have ever tried it

 

Con's of the wrist strap alone on the English system

 

Again I haven tried it but I should think the reverse of the following

 

finger and hand positioning positioning

sliding the fingers along the scales

a secure grasp.

 

Dave

[Wolf Molkentin]

Cons of the finger slide:

 

none

 

Since I make no use of the "pinkie rests" at all (apart from the rare moments of playing the instrument standing up) I would note one "con" as far as I'm concerned: The "looks" of the instrument would do nicer without. Screwing them off would obviously not solve this issue, as the fretwork has its place for them anyay....

 

As to the reasons of not using them: need of all eight fingers, stability provided by chordal playing itself (it comes to my mind that for single line melody playing I sometimes rest the pinkes on the plates, but could still do without that feature).

 

As to the thumb strap, I guess you're right with the advice of not overtightening them. However, most fellow players I've met don't slide that much into the straps at any moment.

 

I myself am using a fixed position, thumbs completely stuck into the strap, not to tight and thus allowing some, well, radial movement, but I wouldn't slide in parallel to the buttons enganged, no problem at least with the 48 treble as yet.

[d.elliott]

Just because one person does not like finger slides, it is no reason to dispense with them denying others of the benefit of the feature. Not everyone plays block chords on a regular basis, or certainly constantly so the stabilising benefit should be retained, especially as there is no practical dis benefit in their presence. I tend to think that the changes i might make would be along the lines of thinning out the enharmonic accidental notes.

 

If you end up working on instruments which are tuned to unequal temperament you will see that the Ab & G# are not the same note, any more than D# & Eb are. With equal temperament tuning these enharmonic notes become duplicates. Accepting this I would leave the notional spaces on the key board blind, re-shuffle the reed pans to give the unused space up to provide F & F# on the right hand side and the D & D# on the left hand side. This would yield root notes for F; D, Eb to add to C, G, Bb, A, this only a single haldf step down in an enlarged key board

 

Dave

[Wolf Molkentin]

Dave, of course you're right regarding the pinkie slides, and I wouldn't plead for a general design change which just me myself and I would prefer for very personal reasons, only wanted to mention a (well-balanced) "con"...

 

As to the enharmonic duplications the swapping of Ab for a low F is, as you know, a step which has huge advantages AFAIC, not sure about skipping more doublings - however, I love to have my F on the left side, for applying the open fifth!

 

Best wishes - Wolf