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Midi Hayden Duet? Assessing Demand


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Trying to work out the computer keyboard mapping.

 

When just refreshed, the letter 'G ' appears to be middle C, so 'S' is Gb, 'D' is Ab, 'F' is Bb, 'H' is D, 'J' is E, 'K' is F#, 'l' is G# and ';' is A#,

dropping down a row: 'X' is Db, 'C' is Eb, 'V' is F and so on.

 

It is not really necessary to know which notes are which keys, if you know the Hayden layout then you can start anywhere you like on the computer keyboard and play a tune using the Hayden layout.

 

Very interesting to play with the slider to listen to different tunings, but ... I am afraid that I hate the sound of the synth that you are using, I understand why you need to do that in a web page, but it is an ugly sound. I would really like to hear it with good quality sampled sounds instead of poor quality synthesized sounds.

 

(There seems to be a bug in that occasionally keys would drop octaves on successive presses. Cured by refreshing the page to reset the player. This could be my keyboard which is a Bluetooth Android keyboard that I am using on a PC which is probably not a recommended configuration.)

 

The Striso? I like the idea and I like the expressive possibilities that it has, but I don't much like the sounds it produces - at least in the videos. I assume that at some point it will be possible to connect it to an external midi device or a computer and have a bigger choice of instrumentation?

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It is not really necessary to know which notes are which keys, if you know the Hayden layout then you can start anywhere you like on the computer keyboard and play a tune using the Hayden layout.

 

 

Actually, it should be necessary in any setting other that 12 Tone Equal Temperament, yes? Because a Meantone, Just, etc. need to be anchored to a specific pitch, and the intervals are better for intervals in that key, but worse in others, yes? Or is the computer constantly recalculating which is note to anchor the temperament to?

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Have fun and I'm curious to hear what people that would like to have a midi Hayden concertina think of the Striso.

 

Piers, I play an acoustic Hayden (a Beaumont model by Morse/Buttonbox Instruments), as well as a vintage Crane Duet concertina.

 

Overall I find your Striso interesting, though like Don I'd be more interested in it as a MIDI controller than as a standalone instrument. When the processor, amplifier, batteries etc. need to go inside the instrument that adds some expense and compromises I'd rather avoid. I also wonder if it couldn't be notably more compact if it didn't have to have speaker/battery/etc in it, but I understand that you're deliberately going for a standalone item, so just differing priorities there.

 

But setting logistics aside, overall I find it pretty interesting. The limited left hand at first is offputting for a concertinist, but I read your blurb on "Perceived Pitch Height" (http://www.striso.org/the-striso/perceived-pitch-height/) and think I sort of get how that's supposed to make the bass end sort of sound like it has a much larger range than it has. Though for a Hayden player I think having to play inversions for chords based in the top half of the bass side would take some slight mental change, but not terrible.

 

The slightly different angle of the DC layout doesn't look like it would confuse a Hayden player too much. The lack of bellow is initially one of the more problematic parts, so I'd have to get a feel for the dynamic control of the motion sensor before deciding how much the lack of bellows threw me off.

 

 

Is there any tentative price that the Striso is aiming for? Not to hold you to numbers too early or anything. Is this going to be more a boutique small-scale handmade product, or is there a plan to semi-mass produce them by casting them in plastic, making batches of buttons, etc to cut down on production costs?

 

In whatever case, I don't think the world has any surplus of compact isomorphic keyboards. I'm unsure whether I'd personally buy one, mostly depending on how pricey they come out to be, and how close we seem to be getting to a decent MIDI Hayden concertina or no, but if they were mass produced in the $500 range I think I'd be awfully tempted, since I like your design more than just a flat Hayden/hex keyboard like the Axis-49. Though if they're more like $2,000 I could probably find a MIDI Hayden concertina solution in that range that I'd be happier/more-familiar with.

 

 

It's totally escaping me, but recently on Cnet we discussed an instrument very similar to yours, though with a fancier marketing campaign. It's also a two sided box hanging/strapped on the chest, the difference being that theirs is sort of an isomorphic English concertina layout, with the scale going back and forth between the hands. But otherwise pretty similar in being a MIDI instrument with pressure-sensitive buttons, etc. Can anyone recall what that critter was called so we can post a link and pics to clarify?

 

EDIT: That's it, the Dualo. Thanks Graham!

 

167p17k.jpg

Edited by MatthewVanitas
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It's totally escaping me, but recently on Cnet we discussed an instrument very similar to yours, though with a fancier marketing campaign. It's also a two sided box hanging/strapped on the chest, the difference being that theirs is sort of an isomorphic English concertina layout, with the scale going back and forth between the hands. But otherwise pretty similar in being a MIDI instrument with pressure-sensitive buttons, etc. Can anyone recall what that critter was called so we can post a link and pics to clarify?

 

http://dualo.org/en/the-dualo-principle/

Edited by Graham Collicutt
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Don, I agree the sawtooth wave is no beauty, but bear in mind this was just a quick revival of a 2010 project which now has the added choice of a low latency ugly sound :)

If you want to play with tuning exploration and the wicki keyboard layout with more beautiful sound there is a nice free synth called 2032, http://dynamictonality.com/2032.htm

 

 

Actually, it should be necessary in any setting other that 12 Tone Equal Temperament, yes? Because a Meantone, Just, etc. need to be anchored to a specific pitch, and the intervals are better for intervals in that key, but worse in others, yes? Or is the computer constantly recalculating which is note to anchor the temperament to?
'Anchoring' the tuning is necessary when the tuning system has more dimensions than the note layout, which is the case when using meantone (2D) on a piano (1D), or 5 limit just intonation (3D) on a 2D button lattice. However the whole syntonic tuning continuum is 2D, and as such perfectly fits a 2D isomorphic keyboard. I hope that makes sense, it's a complex topic :)
About the Striso, the main goal is to make a standalone instrument with its own unique sound (which is far from final). I really like to keep it affordable, which for me would mean well below thousand euro. At the same time I want to keep it wood, and no doubt there will be different versions.
And since there are many more creative souls I think it is a nice idea to make a more bare bones version of the keyboard available for use in DIY instruments.
One of my greater goals is broader use of isomorphic and tuning invariant note layouts.
I know the Dualo, it indeed has many similarities and also an interesting (isomorphic and tuning invariant!) keyboard, and as you say, there is still plenty of room in this world for compact isomorphic keyboards.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts
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Glad to hear the intent is to make the Striso a (moderately) affordable instrument. I hope you're run across some good labor-saving techniques (CAD-tooling the wood?) to maximize efficiency to help keep the price down.

 

Definitely looking forward to hearing more about this instrument as you advance in your plan. Though I still am seeking a good solution on a MIDI concertina, since bellows are just such an intuitive way to manage dynamics.

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Potential good news: I contacted Dean Onyon (S-Wave Instruments) and Steve Rouse (Streb eMelodeon) about MIDI Hayden concertinas, and they may have some insights to share with us. Nothing definitive at all, and I don't want to speak out of turn for them, but when their time frees up maybe after the holidays, they may have ideas to share.

 

I still haven't emailed Wim Wakker about this thread, but as I understand he tried Anglo MIDI and felt it wasn't something he wanted to pursue, so don't know if he'd be interested at this juncture. And even if he were, the most likely option would just be offering a reedless Peacock, though that would be a decent option.

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  • 1 month later...

How are the various projects getting on?

 

I have the first half of an English-system 40-key MIDI miniature going. The keys are magnet operated and work fine - so does the software. I am just having proper bellows mare for a Stagi-Mini - hence I am using the dimensions of the mini, so that I can uses those bellows on the MINI-MIDI!

 

post-7162-0-66032600-1421694932_thumb.jpg

 

On the same line I am working on a Hayden. For practical digital reasons it will have 32-keys either side, so that only one type of board is required. The good thing is that the board can be installed with different angles right and left! And of course it can transpose up and down - sides separately...

 

post-7162-0-62452000-1421694918_thumb.jpg

 

Any comments on the layout?

 

Both instruments will came in three versions: without dynamics, with a ultrasonic distance-sensor for dynamics and a pressure-sensor.

 

PS: These are just drawing pins! In the end there will be metal-buttons. As it is easy to change the layout in software, it will be possible to switch to mirror-image-layout!

Edited by conzertino
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Robert:

 

No progress at all on my part for a variety of reasons.

 

Mainly I have been stuck without a solution on what to use for buttons/action/sensors.

 

IIRC. You were originally going to use existing vintage action boards with hall-effect sensors, but these latest pictures seem to reveal a different story.

 

It looks like you are going with custom buttons? If so, then please provide some more details and availability?

 

Thx. Don.

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All,

 

I'm new to this forum. I'm a scientific instrument builder, and I'm building an electronic English concertina for quiet practice, so getting the key action right is pretty much the whole point. I've settled on a mechanism that uses a plunger and spring, held in place with a pair of circuit boards. I'm not sure how to post a pic, but I can email images to interested parties.

 

The throw length and force profile are as close as I could get to my acoustic instrument with off-the-shelf components. The mechanism doesn't require any special machining, although you would need to design a pair of circuit boards with holes in the correct places. I sense plunger position with a coil of wire and a simple bit of electronics which creates a frequency that changes with the plunger position. A microprocessor converts the frequency into position. Because of this, it is possible to set the "on" position _in_firmware_ rather than jinking with the hall effect switch position. Closest practical spacing between mechanisms is about 9.5mm.

 

I had hoped to be able to simulate the change in airflow when the plunger opens, but there isn't enough space between the plunger and the coil to make a realistic difference. I'm hoping to be able to tweak that in the future to get a more accurate feel.

 

Advantages:

Fully customizable force profile, key throw, actuation position, etc.

Reasonable material cost: less than $2 per mechanism, including electronics. The most expensive component is the spring.

All components commercially available, except holding circuit boards. No milling or cutting required.

Able to read amount of displacement over key travel -- allows for half-valve effects and programmable "on" position.

No key click.

 

Disadvantages:

Some assembly required. Coil needs to be wound by hand.

Requires a serious microprocessor to read the frequency of more than a few switches at a time.

 

That last disadvantage is the trick of it. I'm using a Ti Piccolo processor at 80 MHz to read 25 switches, and it's sweating. Your basic Arduino is two orders of magnitude too slow to do the job. Something you might want to consider is forgetting about the coil, and only using the mechanical parts of the mechanism, then mounting a small permanent magnet on the plunger and a Hall-effect sensor on the circuit board.

 

Let me know if you want details, and good luck with your projects.

 

-Jim MacA.

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I think a linear Hall effect sensor like the Allegro part is an excellent choice. I have to admit that I'm going for the inductance-digital converter because it's hard to do, and I'm like that. Also, the Hall effect solution costs about $1 more per switch, which might not seem like much, but I somewhat rashly committed to making a concertina for each and every one of my dozen nieces and nephews, so that adds up to serious coin. Keep in mind that the Allegro sensor uses about 6 mA per switch, and while this isn't a huge current draw, it isn't nothing, so you might want to consider keeping the switches turned off and cycling them on every msec or so. The datasheet says they'll stabilize in 32 usec. As for me, I'm too far down the inductor road to turn back -- at least not until I see what's around the corner...

 

Something that either technique could use is the notion of a plunger held captive and straight by a pair of circuit boards. For not very much money, you can order a board with lovely plated holes exactly where you want them. Space two boards about 1/2" apart, load with plungers and springs, and you've got a cheap keyboard with whatever force and travel you want.

 

-Jim MacA.

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The throw length and force profile are as close as I could get to my acoustic instrument with off-the-shelf components. The mechanism doesn't require any special machining, although you would need to design a pair of circuit boards with holes in the correct places. I sense plunger position with a coil of wire and a simple bit of electronics which creates a frequency that changes with the plunger position. A microprocessor converts the frequency into position. Because of this, it is possible to set the "on" position _in_firmware_ rather than jinking with the hall effect switch position. Closest practical spacing between mechanisms is about 9.5mm.

Interesting method. I wonder if there is some way you could send a single pulse into each coil in turn and measure its time constant rather than incorporating it into an oscillator circuit and measuring the frequency.

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Alex, yes, that would work, and might make more sense for some setups, but the oscillator method is cheap (1/3 of a 74HCU04 per plunger), and low-power (<1mA per plunger). I'll send a schematic if anyone cares, but I've tuned the component values for my particular processor -- you will need to select different components for your needs.

 

Here are some pictures of the plunger assembly. The Bill of Materials for the non-electronic components looks like this, with part numbers from US distributors:

 

30mm M3 nylon screw (McMaster 94270A132)

3 x aluminium washers (McMaster 93286A005)

brass standoff (DigiKey 952-1514-ND)

Nylon spacer (McMaster 94639A660)

Spring (Lee Spring LP014BC 04S316)

Keycap (DigiKey CKN10427-ND for white or CKN10426-ND for black)

Coil form (DigiKey 495-5120-ND)

 

Note that the keycaps aren't threaded, but you can sort of screw the nylon screw into it, and it will hold, especially if you add a drop of glue.

As designed, this assembly is just a tiny bit too large for your 9mm spacing requirement. My design is at 10.5mm, and I could get down to about 10, but probably not much lower. How critical is the 9mm spec for your needs?

 

Here is an exploded view of the components:

post-11615-0-31594300-1422222647_thumb.jpeg

 

Here is the bottom of the PCB with one coil and plunger assembly installed:

post-11615-0-62284500-1422222648_thumb.jpeg

 

Here is the top view:

post-11615-0-67661900-1422222649_thumb.jpeg

 

And here is what it looks like with the cover plate (another PCB) installed:

post-11615-0-71254400-1422222650_thumb.jpeg

 

 

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Jim

 

Great stuff, very interesting ideas and good pictures.

 

Is there any one thing that contrains the minimum spacing to 9.5 to 10mm and is this a minimum in all directions. I am suspecting the coil, but maybe not? In any case, the Hayden spacing is 16mm along the rows and 9mm between the rows. But the buttons are staggered so that the minimum radial distance between any two buttons is about 11mm so things look Ok as long as your minimum distance is radial from the center of the button and not rectangular.

 

I would appreciate you posting your circuit details together with any advice on tuning the circuit to match the processor.

 

Don.

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