Crabb 61K Crane Duet On Ebay - Another Scam?

[sqzbx]

Btw, I asked the seller for pictures of the action, and he sent me these:

 

[Daniel Hersh]

Btw, I asked the seller for pictures of the action, and he sent me these:

 

Interesting - I did too, a few days ago, and he said he didn't want to disassemble the concertina again. Maybe a second request did the trick. Thanks for posting! My big remaining questions at this point: Is it in concert pitch? And what are the notes on the "extra" buttons beyond the standard 55 keys?

[Theo]

Judging from those pictures it appears to be an unrestored instrument so it would be safe to assume it needs new pad, new valves, tuning and perhaps other work too.

[JimLucas]

Btw, I asked the seller for pictures of the action, and he sent me these:

Interesting - I did too, a few days ago, and he said he didn't want to disassemble the concertina again. Maybe a second request did the trick.

Relisted again with a $2200 starting price and including those photos of the action. But why no photos of the reed pans? They would have been exposed to get the action photos.

 

My big remaining questions at this point: Is it in concert pitch? And what are the notes on the "extra" buttons beyond the standard 55 keys?

Speculation here, but:

• The right-hand keyboard looks like that of a 48-key Crane with an extra row at the bottom. That would actually make a kind of sense, since the Crane layout can continue down to that G below middle C without breaking pattern. (I've personally seen two such instruments, and I wish I had one.) If that's the case, then the two "missing" accidentals at the top would be the highest C# and D# and the highest note an F -- just like on the standard 48 -- but at the bottom it would be fully chromatic down to fiddle G.
• If that's the case, then there's the question of whether the array in the left hand (excluding the two out-of-array additional buttons) starts on viola C (C below middle C) or also goes down to the G below (which was the case on the two I mentioned above). The latter would give the same amount of overlap as on 55-button, but in a lower range, while the former would give an additional half octave of overlap but miss out on the extra bass notes.
• On a couple of Jeffries-labeled Cranes I've seen, the additional buttons outside the main array in the left hand have been lower but have not maintained chromatic continuity. They were also not the same on those two instruments, so what those additional two on this instrument might be is anybody's guess. If this is a down-to-G-on-both-sides instrument, I might guess either a low F and F# or a low F and super-low C, but those are really just my own ideas of what might be useful.

Edited to delete a mistaken "observation".

Edited April 16, 2014 by JimLucas

[Wolf Molkentin]

 

Btw, I asked the seller for pictures of the action, and he sent me these:

Interesting - I did too, a few days ago, and he said he didn't want to disassemble the concertina again. Maybe a second request did the trick.

Relisted again with a $2200 starting price and including those photos of the action. But why no photos of the reed pans? They would have been exposed to get the action photos.

 

My big remaining questions at this point: Is it in concert pitch? And what are the notes on the "extra" buttons beyond the standard 55 keys?

Speculation here, but:

• The right-hand keyboard looks like that of a 48-key Crane with an extra row at the bottom. That would actually make a kind of sense, since the Crane layout can continue down to that G below middle C without breaking pattern. (I've personally seen two such instruments, and I wish I had one.) If that's the case, then the two "missing" accidentals at the top would be the highest C# and D# and the highest note an F -- just like on the standard 48 -- but at the bottom it would be fully chromatic down to fiddle G.
• If that's the case, then there's the question of whether the array in the left hand (excluding the two out-of-array additional buttons) starts on viola C (C below middle C) or also goes down to the G below (which was the case on the two I mentioned above). The latter would give the same amount of overlap as on 55-button, but in a lower range, while the former would give an additional half octave of overlap but miss out on the extra bass notes.
• On a couple of Jeffries-labeled Cranes I've seen, the additional buttons outside the main array in the left hand have been lower but have not maintained chromatic continuity. They were also not the same on those two instruments, so what those additional two on this instrument might be is anybody's guess. If this is a down-to-G-on-both-sides instrument, I might guess either a low F and F# or a low F and super-low C, but those are really just my own ideas of what might be useful.

If my speculation about this concertina being a fourth lower than usual is correct, then the seller is doing himself a disservice by not letting us know that and not providing pictures of the reeds.

 

Jim, in the meantime there is one picture of a reed pan, probably from the righthand side. Do you make anything out of that?

[JimLucas]

Speculation here, but:

• The right-hand keyboard looks like that of a 48-key Crane with an extra row at the bottom. That would actually make a kind of sense, since the Crane layout can continue down to that G below middle C without breaking pattern. (I've personally seen two such instruments, and I wish I had one.) If that's the case, then the two "missing" accidentals at the top would be the highest C# and D# and the highest note an F -- just like on the standard 48 -- but at the bottom it would be fully chromatic down to fiddle G.
• If that's the case, then there's the question of whether the array in the left hand (excluding the two out-of-array additional buttons) starts on viola C (C below middle C) or also goes down to the G below (which was the case on the two I mentioned above). The latter would give the same amount of overlap as on 55-button, but in a lower range, while the former would give an additional half octave of overlap but miss out on the extra bass notes.
• On a couple of Jeffries-labeled Cranes I've seen, the additional buttons outside the main array in the left hand have been lower but have not maintained chromatic continuity. They were also not the same on those two instruments, so what those additional two on this instrument might be is anybody's guess. If this is a down-to-G-on-both-sides instrument, I might guess either a low F and F# or a low F and super-low C, but those are really just my own ideas of what might be useful.

If my speculation about this concertina being a fourth lower than usual is correct, then the seller is doing himself a disservice by not letting us know that and not providing pictures of the reeds.

 

Jim, in the meantime there is one picture of a reed pan, probably from the righthand side. Do you make anything out of that?

 

Oops! You're right. On the little screen I'm using right now the thumbnail of that picture looked pretty much like the one of the action, so I thought he had posted the two action photos, and I didn't look at the larger version.

 

Yes, it looks like the RH reed pan, and though it would help a lot to know the size of the ends, I do think that what I see is consistent with going down to G, i.e., longest reeds comparable to the same in a treble English.

 

(I've now edited my previous post to remove my faulty comment.)

Edited April 16, 2014 by JimLucas

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Always difficult to speculate so can't guarantee, but if core scale is C then see attachment.

Note, left hand thumb and outrigger buttons may be F & Bb respectively, the most common on Crabb models.

 

 

 

Geoffrey

 

 

 

[Don Taylor]

but if core scale is C

 

Geoffrey

 

By "core scale" do you mean that the central three columns of notes on each side are all notes from C in concert pitch?

 

If so, does that imply that Cranes were made that had notes from a different scale (maybe Bb for band work with the SA?) in the central columns?

 

So Cranes could be transposing instruments? How often did this happen?

 

Don.

[Ed Stander]

Sorry to be so late in the conversation...

Marcmaudio and antiquity music, and around a dozen other pseudonyms belong to Mitch Mitchell in California. He typically buys items cheaply, and sells them dearly, often lying in the process. I've dealt with him in the past and have had problems - he sold me a poor item which I returned. Upon the return, he told me that I had switched out parts of the item (an impossibility), and that he would not accept the return. He finally relented, but it was not a fun deal.

I'm certain he has the item in question. Just be forewarned that he doesn't take kindly to accepting returns, and he always makes sure he takes in a healthy profit when he flips the items.

His specialty, by the way, is Deagan percussion instruments. If you search under those, you'll find him all over the place.

Best - Ed

Edited April 16, 2014 by Ed Stander

[Wolf Molkentin]

Sorry to be so late in the conversation...

Marcmaudio and antiquity music, and around a dozen other pseudonyms belong to Mitch Mitchell in California. He typically buys items cheaply, and sells them dearly, often lying in the process. I've dealt with him in the past and have had problems - he sold me a poor item which I returned. Upon the return, he told me that I had switched out parts of the item (an impossibility), and that he would not accept the return. He finally relented, but it was not a fun deal.

I'm certain he has the item in question. Just be forewarned that he doesn't take kindly to accepting returns, and he always makes sure he takes in a healthy profit when he flips the items.

His specialty, by the way, is Deagan percussion instruments. If you search under those, you'll find him all over the place.

Best - Ed

 

How odd, I always seemed to like a Mr. Mitch Mitchell quite a lot!

 

(couldn't resist, sorry - OT)

[ceemonster]

[[Judging from those pictures it appears to be an unrestored instrument so it would be safe to assume it needs new pad, new valves, tuning and perhaps other work too.]]]

 

yes, that was my assumption from the start, particularly when a prior poster dug up the UK auction description saying it was a mess (or some such) on the inside. this is why i'm so queasy about trying to make a call as to what would have to be invested to get it in shape--or whether it is even in a baseline condition to be worth putting into shape--- despite the fact that it's right here in the monster metropolis where reside--i mean, what are the odds of that if you are a crane person in the US?

 

but given all that---it does not inspire confidence that the description was changed to add that all notes are in tune and it sounds great, blah, blah, blah. i don't believe that. i believe that even assuming it IS restorable, it needs gobs of work at a hefty investment.

 

 

[[Marcmaudio and antiquity music, and around a dozen other pseudonyms belong to Mitch Mitchell in California. He typically buys items cheaply, and sells them dearly, often lying in the process. I've dealt with him in the past and have had problems - he sold me a poor item which I returned. Upon the return, he told me that I had switched out parts of the item (an impossibility), and that he would not accept the return. He finally relented, but it was not a fun deal.

I'm certain he has the item in question. Just be forewarned that he doesn't take kindly to accepting returns, and he always makes sure he takes in a healthy profit when he flips the items.]]

 

the correct name as i understand it to be is Mitchell Manger. he did not say his name when i spoke to him a couple of weeks ago (he didn't withhold it, we did not go there), but per other research, he is a recent admittee to the state bar of california and appears to be a recent graduate of ucla law school. he stated to some ucla magazine, alumni or publication of that sort, that he hit on the idea of dealing in rare instruments as a profit venture. nothing wrong with that per se, but as an online dealer of instruments or anything else, you need to be extremely transparent and above-board, don't you? not to mention, extremely knowledgeable and forthcoming regarding details on your wares...i told him on the phone when investigating this a couple weeks ago that the manner of the item description and other factors, such as his recent change of ebay moniker, have an appearance that does not instill confidence, and subsequent to that colloquy i do have the impression he is attempting to put more info out there about the instrument in order to assuage such uneasiness.

 

http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/286346

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otgCLxDI6GE

 

i continue to wish to see it, but it's a nightmarish traffic crawl away on the other side of town from me, and he's making it hard for me by not being open on weekends. i won't know what friday looks like until thursday, but would love to go out there friday...

Edited April 17, 2014 by ceemonster

[Daniel Hersh]

Yes, it looks like the RH reed pan, and though it would help a lot to know the size of the ends, I do think that what I see is consistent with going down to G, i.e., longest reeds comparable to the same in a treble English.

There's also a pic of the LH reed pan on the previous version of the eBay listing:

 

Edited April 17, 2014 by Daniel Hersh

[Geoffrey Crabb]

 

but if core scale is C

 

Geoffrey

 

By "core scale" do you mean that the central three columns of notes on each side are all notes from C in concert pitch?

 

If so, does that imply that Cranes were made that had notes from a different scale (maybe Bb for band work with the SA?) in the central columns?

 

So Cranes could be transposing instruments? How often did this happen?

 

Don.

 

Hi Don, yes, yes & yes (but not often).

I am not sure if other makers made them in different 'keys' other than C but certainly some Crabb instruments, were made in Bb or Eb.

 

At least one, 71 button, (No 9011, Sept 1927) was made in B natural , (I have the original bill of sale).

 

Geoffrey

[Stephen Chambers]

From my (restorer's) point of view, the condition of this instrument is exactly the way I like them - in good "unmolested" condition, since it left its maker, seeing that it looks "all original" and like nobody else has attempted to repair it - perfect!

... I always seemed to like a Mr. Mitch Mitchell quite a lot!

 

Wrong West Coast (even if he was from Ealing) percussionist and quite an Experience...

[Ed Stander]

Right, and Sorry - yes his name is Mitch Manger. I've been trying to forget.

Best - Ed

[Daniel Hersh]

Now at $2099: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161283751508

[ceemonster]

do you guys think the reeds, boards, frames, look any worse than those of other unrestored concertinas that have shaped up perfectly fine?

Edited April 25, 2014 by ceemonster

[Stephen Chambers]

do you guys think the reeds, boards, frames, look any worse than those of other unrestored concertinas that have shaped up perfectly fine?

 

They look pretty good to me, and like I said; exactly the way I like them - in good "unmolested" condition, seemingly untouched since it left its maker, seeing that it looks "all original" and like nobody else has attempted to repair it - perfect!