Concertinists: Are We Stuck In Ruts?

[Jim Besser]

Anglo concertina has been and will remain my primary instrument, but lately I've been dipping my toes into the world of 2 row melodeons.

What attracted me to melodeons are the young melodeonists, mostly in the UK and Europe, who are extending the range of this seemingly limited instrument.

Boundary crossing groups like Naragonia and composer/players like Andy Cutting are producing exciting, dynamic and fun music that defies easy classification.

What I'm wondering: why hasn't there been a similar trend among concertinists? Why are we seeing that broadening in the world of melodeons, but not among concertinists? Or is it there and I've just missed it?

Again, I'm not criticizing traditional concertina playing - it's most of what I do and will remain most of what I do. Just wondering why the exploration of different musical directions that seems to be flourishing among melodeonists is not among concertinists.

[Geoff Wooff]

Quite a few 'melodionists' in my area are moving into three row boxes with extra basses... some have gone with the latest modified keyboards and quite changed the abilities of the instrument. My long term friend has had one of these New Melodeons made to order and he sold me his wonderfull Baritone/Treble Aeola to pay for the thing.

What my pal is playing sounds interesting, and he tried to describe the différences... I got lost quickly... and he spent nearly two years in Bordeaux studying this new playing style under one of the young master's....

 

The young lady who I sit next to on stage in our band plays a fairly standard 3 row Castagnari Diato ( Marc Perron style Box? ).. and it is a world away from what I recall of two row Melodion playing in England and Australia during the '70's and '80's .

 

Good luck with that Jim.

[Jim Besser]

Quite a few 'melodionists' in my area are moving into three row boxes with extra basses... some have gone with the latest modified keyboards and quite changed the abilities of the instrument. My long term friend has had one of these New Melodeons made to order and he sold me his wonderfull Baritone/Treble Aeola to pay for the thing.

What my pal is playing sounds interesting, and he tried to describe the différences... I got lost quickly... and he spent nearly two years in Bordeaux studying this new playing style under one of the young master's....

 

The young lady who I sit next to on stage in our band plays a fairly standard 3 row Castagnari Diato ( Marc Perron style Box? ).. and it is a world away from what I recall of two row Melodion playing in England and Australia during the '70's and '80's .

 

Good luck with that Jim.

 

While some of the innovative young players are going to three row, or two row with 18 basses, there are some who are using 2 rows with the traditional 8 basses.

 

But what you say makes sense - technological changes driving changes in the music.

 

Still, the concertina - even the Anglo - is a fairly adaptable instrument. Why aren't we seeing a flourishing of new concertina-centered music?

Edited February 24, 2014 by Jim Besser

[Steve Wilson]

A rut can be quite comfortable. You can take your hands off the steering wheel and just bowl along. Most in the concertina world are very happy with just playing their preferred type of music and that's fine.

 

But there is a bigger music world out there to explore. I'm doing my bit, trying in a small way to raise consciousness and sometimes raise eyebrows too.

 

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO39EOc_UVf728cjv8zl-9Q/videos

 

This quest of mine is just beginning. As my ability improves a dabble in jazz and blues might be interesting.

 

Certainly some in the concertina world do perhaps need a bit of a poke. The other day I was very surprised when one had never heard a well known song I did from a popular Australian singer, Paul Kelly.

 

Ruts are comfortable and the road outside them can be bumpy. So easy to steer back into the rut.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Steve Wilson

[Geoff Wooff]

The technological changes in the European Melodian (Diato) are being led by the young players though... so that is a good way for things to happen.

 

There are some interesting advances too in Concertina keyboard design.... like the Franglo of Emamuel Pariselle/Colin Dipper.... the duet of Thomas Restoin... the recent making of a chromatiphone Concertina for Danersen by Wim Wakker.... the Hayden duet.... all these are new-ish ideas for the concertina.

 

As to Concertina players being in their own ruts... well yes, to a large part that could be true. The revolution in Irish Anglo playing that has developed since the 1960's is continuing and changing... and perhas there is a move by some EC players to try to embrace ( claw back to) the standards of playing that existed during the early to mid 20th Century.....

 

There are some inovative players of each system and we could all aspire to improve our own playing.

[JimLucas]

Why are we seeing that broadening in the world of melodeons, but not among concertinists? Or is it there and I've just missed it?

I believe it is there. But the concertina innovators and explorers are fewer, almost certainly in part because there are simply fewer concertina players. Also, what they do doesn't seem to get as much attention. (I hope it's not simply because they're not as loud. )

 

Have you really missed it, or have you perhaps not fully acknowledged what you've heard? John Kirkpatrick does interesting stuff on the (anglo) concertina, not just on the melodeon. Harry Scurfield is known for -- among other things -- the British-Cajun band Bayou Gumbo and this work with the African "squashbox". Then there's the Boer tradition. Or Alan Day and French music. If you want innovative, I've heard stuff from Niall Vallely that's a far cry from Mrs. Crotty or even Noel Hill. And Kato on his 40-button Bastari, which has it's own Topic/thread.

 

Switching to the English, Simon Thoumire's playing ranges from traditional Scottish to jazz. Mike Agranoff has recorded a couple of Bach pieces, though concertina isn't his main instrument. Alistair Anderson has done a couple of baroque pieces and at least one ragtime piece, as well as a number of original pieces, including his Steel Skies suite and other compositions for chamber or orchestral ensemble. I've heard some brilliant stuff from Robert Harbron, though some of the best (in my opinion) hasn't been recorded commercially, as far as I know. And a wide variety of musical styles by Dave Townsend.

 

David Cornell did some brilliant work on the Maccann before he was tragically taken ill. What about "our own" Dirge, who recently reported joining a band doing more currently popular music? Or the late Ralph Jordan? I've also heard some brilliant non-"folk" song accompaniment on the Crane by Jamie Boorer and Charlotte Oliver.

 

The above must only scratch the surface. There are certainly others.

 

 

[malcolmbebb]

The fact that you can get a very decent melodeon for a third the price of a half-decent concertina might have an attraction for younger and less well-heeled player?

[Don Taylor]

If the ukulele can get to the Proms at the Royal Albert Hall and perform a modern (well, relatively modern) song, then surely concers could do it too:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EmxbbAoDq4&feature=kp

[ceemonster]

[why hasn't there been a similar trend among concertinists? Why are we seeing that broadening in the world of melodeons, but not among concertinists?]

 

though some of the replies here seem to be focused on melodeon innovations in terms of design/engineering, which is certainly interesting, i take the OP's question to relate to ruts-versus-innovation in musical styles....yes?

 

i firmly believe that you'd see plenty of stylistic branching out if concertinas were played more widely. but they're not. so the question really becomes about that issue....

 

and on that one, i'm with the poster who brought up the point involving the do-re-mi as in, $$$. or, say, the $$$ in relation to what the instrument will do.

 

concertinas with high-quality, fast reeds, bellows, and mechanisms are really expensive...and i'm talking about the hybrids. the so-called "real" concertinas are really, REALLY expensive. while melodeons can be pricey, you can get a fast, responsive, loud melodeon (or CBA or PA for that matter) for the price of a hybrid concertina. and most to the point, you can then play it in all kinds of settings, combos, and venues where a concertina is almost useless.

 

at these high prices, it just becomes a sticking point for people that the melodeon and the accordion can be heard so much better in all kinds of contexts than the concertina can, and are thus going to be more usable for the $$$. and if you are talking about 3-row melodeons plus CBAs and PAs, in addition to the added lung power and projection, you also get much more you can do with them musically in chromatic terms, bass accompaniment, etc.

 

when uninitiated folks hear me playing concertina somewhere and come up and fuss over it and ask where you can get them and how much they cost....they are SHOCKED by the price ranges.

 

but, this also goes for my accordion tech, who is a PA virtuoso, composer, arranger and teacher. he, too, was simply APPALLED to learn the prices of my concertinas, but being a professional musician who is also very savvy and intelligent....in his case, the incredulity had a note of comic derision in that sense of, "there's one born every minute," and was followed by peals of laughter. not mean. just, marveling at what suckers people would be to pay those prices for something they could do so little with professionally. i was there this weekend, actually, and somebody was playing a Titano "Starlight" PA model that costs around ten grand. this monster's got like, 10 treble switches for all different kinds of sounds, and around seven on the bass side. a good pro accordionist could make a living, or some very sweet supplemental dough, using that thing to play restaurants, weddings, dances, shows, blah, blah, solo or in bands, in any musical genre you can think of from jazz to folk, to classical, anything. one person can serve as an "entire band" by themselves playing the basses with the treble side, or can play just bass/rhythm back-up in a band, or could play just right-hand solo melody with the switch on one single dry reed like a melody instrument or accordion-reeded concertina. anything, in any key or style.

 

okay...the price tag on that Titano "Starlight" is....LESS than the cost of many Jeffries Anglos. that IS kind of appalling when you think about it. people have to choose, and they don't feel good going into these price ranges for an instrument that doesn't even have all the notes (most Anglos) and can't be heard in most settings. way, way less audible than, say, a violin, let alone a PA.

Edited February 25, 2014 by ceemonster

[Jim Besser]

 

Why are we seeing that broadening in the world of melodeons, but not among concertinists? Or is it there and I've just missed it?

I believe it is there. But the concertina innovators and explorers are fewer, almost certainly in part because there are simply fewer concertina players. Also, what they do doesn't seem to get as much attention. (I hope it's not simply because they're not as loud. )

 

Have you really missed it, or have you perhaps not fully acknowledged what you've heard? John Kirkpatrick does interesting stuff on the (anglo) concertina, not just on the melodeon. Harry Scurfield is known for -- among other things -- the British-Cajun band Bayou Gumbo and this work with the African "squashbox". Then there's the Boer tradition. Or Alan Day and French music. If you want innovative, I've heard stuff from Niall Vallely that's a far cry from Mrs. Crotty or even Noel Hill. And Kato on his 40-button Bastari, which has it's own Topic/thread.

 

Switching to the English, Simon Thoumire's playing ranges from traditional Scottish to jazz. Mike Agranoff has recorded a couple of Bach pieces, though concertina isn't his main instrument. Alistair Anderson has done a couple of baroque pieces and at least one ragtime piece, as well as a number of original pieces, including his Steel Skies suite and other compositions for chamber or orchestral ensemble. I've heard some brilliant stuff from Robert Harbron, though some of the best (in my opinion) hasn't been recorded commercially, as far as I know. And a wide variety of musical styles by Dave Townsend.

 

David Cornell did some brilliant work on the Maccann before he was tragically taken ill. What about "our own" Dirge, who recently reported joining a band doing more currently popular music? Or the late Ralph Jordan? I've also heard some brilliant non-"folk" song accompaniment on the Crane by Jamie Boorer and Charlotte Oliver.

 

The above must only scratch the surface. There are certainly others.

 

 

 

 

Well, good points. Certainly John K, among others, is an innovator on concertina. But his music hews closely to tradition in many respects. I'm thinking about the young melodeonists, mostly in Europe, who seem to be carving out new modes.

 

Other replies - good points about the relative cost of concertinas and the smaller number of players.

 

I'm not sure technological changes and new layouts are the driving force here; there seem to be plenty of young, innovative players who are making do with two-row eight-bass boxes.

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into this because I'm just not familiar with the genres from which these players spring, so I see them as pushing the boundaries. Naragonia is a case in point: are they creative musicians who are pushing the boundaries of a genre, like John K in many respects, or are they carving out something new?

 

I plead curious ignorance on this point and wait to be educated by those who are better informed.

[ceemonster]

ok, now i'm on a roll, so to address another possible reason for, less musical branching out on concertina.

 

i think many people don't particularly like the voice personality of concertina reeds. remember that thread where somebody did a "blind taste test" of a hybrid and a concertina-reeded instrument for a bunch of listeners and they all voted for the sound of the accordion-reeded one?

 

on top of that, i think that even among those who do cherish the concertina voice, many find that unique voice ill-suited to numerous musical genres. i can't find the cnet thread, but i remember a comment on one to the effect that concertina just was not complementary to the paris musette genre. i suspect there are quite a few genres that even concertina lovers and players don't feel like addressing on their concertinas because they don't like the results.

 

so there's another possible factor.

Edited February 25, 2014 by ceemonster

[JimLucas]

If the ukulele can get to the Proms at the Royal Albert Hall and perform a modern (well, relatively modern) song, then surely concers could do it too:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EmxbbAoDq4&feature=kp

 

That's just one little bit of that Proms performance, and (IMO) hardly the best. You (everyone?) should get the full DVD.

 

(And for a cross-thread reference, it was a Swedish anglo player who introduced me to the group and that performance. )

[Geoff Wooff]

Ceemonster,

 

people might laugh at the concertina and see it as an expensive toy, which it could be construed is what you are saying but it does depend on how one plays it. A Comb and Paper played well will intrigue the listener whereas a Concertina that someone has recently discovered but not yet mastered is hardly going to impress anyone.

 

As to the cost of these instruments, I totally disagree with you: A recent quick survey of prices quoted on a couple of websites shows Hybrid Anglos to cost $81 per button, Englishes were $64 and Duets run to between $62 and $74 . Concertina reeded instruments were quoted at $125 to $163 per button. As you know, I am a musical instrument maker and I certainly would not wish to make the two reeds and the button mechanism for $150 let alone supply all the rest at those prices.

 

OK that might not equate too well to the prices of Titanic sized Accordions but the size of the market place for Concertinas would not allow for such huge production lines and economies of scale.

 

My view is that the prices of new concertinas are very moderate, what we need is better quality instruments and if that means higher prices then so be it!

 

 

Many of us play instruments that were made between 80 and 120 years ago.... there is a reason for this.... Quality. I don't find that my 116 year old concertina cannot be heard in company, in fact I'm sure some will say it is too loud. That the tone might not suit the Paris Musette genre is just a matter of assumed taste and tradition.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Geoff Wooff

[ceemonster]

[boundary crossing groups like

and composer/players like Andy Cutting are producing exciting, dynamic and fun music that defies easy classification.]

and...

[Naragonia is a case in point: are they creative musicians who are pushing the boundaries of a genre, like John K in many respects, or are they carving out something new?]

look, Naragonia, is just arted-up European folk music. fusion-y in the sense of often combining different genres of folk, and/or folk/classical/jazz. but in their case, the strong core of it is folk. i'm not speaking pejoratively here, i like them and their stuff. yes, i agree that the three-row really affords a very impressive increase in expressive scope (though, my personal view is, at that point it's CBA time)....

whether you consider this stuff to be "pushing the boundaries of a genre" versus "carving out something new," is subjective, i guess. but to put it in perspective, it's been going on for a good fifteen or more years in pockets of Europe: finland [sEE box virtuoso/composer/professor Maria Kalaniemi]; france/belgium [sEE, musette/gypsy-swing/tango virtuoso/composer/jazz maestro and box virtuoso Richard Galliano]; sweden [sEE, Vasen and many others]; france/belgium/montreal/quebec [sEE, too many to count]....

the spectrum can range from, "largely jazz with folk touches or influences" [Richard Galliano, or Jan Garbarek's "Swedish Folk Tunes" CD] to, "largely classical, with folk influences or touches" all the way over to, "largely folk, with jazz/classical strains or touches," like Vasen or Naragonia.

this phenom is not "new news." there does seem to have been less of it in ireland until very recently. they were a bit late to this party, but some of them are going great guns now...but Martin Hayes has been involved lately with more than one project falling into this category, as has Caoimhin O Raghallaigh. the irish band Beoga also comes to mind as a kind of jazzier example....

it's also going on with american roots music, "arted up" excursions from, say, banjo composers like Noam Pikelny or Jens Kruger, to take two out of dozens of examples out there...

i'd also make this point---whatever you call them, these stylistic experiments and adventures are NOT limited to, or mainly about, the melodeon. Vasen, for example, is a string group, as is Hednagarna, one of the Swedish groups.

so in a way, to make it about a melodeon-concertina dialectic or contrast may not be fair. ALL the instruments are doing it. which is why i believe the dearth of concertina branch-outs or excursions really pertains to the dearth of concertina-playing, period, see my long-winded posts above...

Edited February 25, 2014 by ceemonster

[Geoff Wooff]

Jim,

Naragonia ,I think, is more about nicely composed and arranged music than an inovative approach to Melodion playing. Yes it is very different to the use of the melodion in Morris dance . Cross posted with C.monster.

 

At a Bal last saturday, our band was playing its usual slightly Rocked-Up 'Musique de Centre France'... the dancers were enjoying it but one man, professor of music, collector of french fiddle playing, did not appear to be in agreement with the stylistic freedom of adding Reggae or Cajun rhythms to Scottishes and Bourrées .. it was the Melodeon and Concertina were to blame!

Edited February 25, 2014 by Geoff Wooff

[ceemonster]

hmm, well, i'm not calling the concertina an expensive toy. but i believe that concertinas are not being played in enough numbers to show us the stylistic adventurism referenced by the OP because free-reed consumers looking at the bottom line see an imbalance between, very high prices on the one hand, versus certain limitations not present in accordions, and opt for the accordion instead. i love the concertina and recently have branched from Anglo into EC and duet precisely because i wish to broaden my stylistic horizons on concertina, to musette, tango, Nordic, and more. but the painful truth is that i can play all of these genres more fully, and be heard much better, on my $1500 CBA, than on my nearly-$3000 hybrid Tenor EC. yet here i am, casting about in spite of these painful facts, plotting and scheming to enable future pursuit of a concertina-reeded TT and Baritone, both of which will each cost more than the hybrid EC. the concertina quest is a romantic quest, in the broader sense of the term.

Edited February 25, 2014 by ceemonster

[JimLucas]

look, Naragonia, is just arted-up European folk music. fusion-y in the sense of often combining different genres of folk, and/or folk/classical/jazz. but in their case, the strong core of it is folk. i'm not speaking pejoratively here, i like them and their stuff. yes, i agree that the three-row really affords a very impressive increase in expressive scope (though, my personal view is, at that point it's CBA time)....

 

whether you consider this stuff to be "pushing the boundaries of a genre" versus "carving out something new," is subjective, i guess. but to put it in perspective, it's been going on for a good fifteen or more years in pockets of Europe...

I very much agree, though it's been much longer than 15 years.

 

finland [sEE box virtuoso/composer/professor Maria Kalaniemi]

I first saw and heard Maria doing her stuff in 1984. That's 30 years ago.

 

this phenom is not "new news." there does seem to have been less of it in ireland until very recently. they were a bit late to this party...

I think you're wrong here. The Chieftains, Planxty, Bothy Band, and others were significant innovators in the '60s and '70s, employing new harmonies, chords (no more 3-chord trick), and styles and introducing new instruments (e.g., bouzouki) or "reviving" old ones (e.g., uilleann pipes and harp).

 

In fact -- this more a response to Jim B. -- I would consider the adoption of souped-up "melodeons" like a 3-row with extra chords to be introducing a new instrument, just as the bouzouki was considered a new instrument in Irish music and not an "innovative" variant of the mandolin or banjo.

 

it's also going on with american roots music, "arted up" excursions from, say, banjo composers like Noam Pikelny or Jens Kruger, to take two out of dozens of examples out there...

And long before that, Bluegrass emerged from "old-timey".

 

i'd also make this point---whatever you call them, these stylistic experiments and adventures are NOT limited to, or mainly about, the melodeon. Vasen, for example, is a string group, as is Hednagarna, one of the Swedish groups.

Hedningarna (formed in 1987) and Väsen (first commercial recording 1990) are both Swedish. Across the North Sea there's been some great innovation from Simon Thoumire (English concertina!), Kathryn Tickell (fiddle and Northumbrian pipes), and various of their friends, some of which I believe could qualify as jazz. Interestingly enough, however, when I attended a fiddle course taught by Kathryn (and Aly Bain) at the Falun Folk Festival (Sweden, late 1990s; one mandolin, my concertina, and numerous fiddles), she said that she had been rediscovering the attraction of the traditional tunes and style... and not just the same genre, but even the same exact tunes that she had previously drifted away from. Now she's involved in various types of music, including directing and composing for a youth orchestra, I believe. (And her mother plays English concertina.)

 

so in a way, to make it about a melodeon-concertina dialectic or contrast may not be fair. ALL the instruments are doing it.

Agreed.

 

which is why i believe the dearth of concertina branch-outs or excursions really pertains to the dearth of concertina-playing, period, see my long-winded posts above...

Disagree about the dearth of branch-outs. They may not be as widely disseminated or recognized as with melodeons and fiddles, but they're there. One factor may be that -- on average -- concertina players are a more modest lot. (I base this speculation on anecdotal personal experience, not on any "scientific" census.) Those who are more inclined to show off their talents are more inclined to choose a louder instrument?

 

I'll try answering your ealier posts on that point in more detail, but first I have to go feed some sheep.

[ceemonster]

i don't think three-row diatonics are really "new." perhaps the use of them in french folk music is a new thing, don't know about that, but three-row diatos have been around a long time. there are perhaps new customized fillips dreamed up and ordered by the musicians, such as some extra basses, or putting a few unisonoric buttons on the box, or whatever, but...

 

the 18-bass Castignari Handry, of which there are several models, seems to be the basic core of the boxes played by both pascale rubens and sophie cavez. don't know what tunings are on the particular boxes used by these musicians, but most Handrys are A/D/G. there is the "club system" three-row diato used for ages in parts of europe and the u.s. here in the western US where i'm based, the mexican folk musicians use three-row diatos in different tunings (albeit with fewer basses), and the scots and irish have the b/c/c#, which has PA stradella basses and has just never been a real rival to the 2-rows, perhaps because the PA bass systems make them magilla gorillas to lug around. there are lots of fun and informative discussion threads about three-row diatos on melodeon.net.