Practicalities With A 64-Key English

[Josh Birch]

As is probably obvious from my flurry of posts recently, I'm in the market for a new EC and I'm down to choosing between a Lachenal New Model treble and a 64-key Aeola extended tenor-treble in fantastic condition that's almost twice the price. In fact, the Aeola is really rather more than I can reasonably afford, but at the risk of seriously upsetting my wife I could probably make it work.

 

Theoretically, all that range, in a package only barely larger and heavier than a Jackie, seems like a great idea. I could play clarinet and cello repertoire, in addition to flute and violin! No more worrying about range ever again! Real bass notes! I know, though, that sometimes ideas look fantastic on paper but run into trouble when translated into reality; I can't help noticing that there aren't a whole lot of people out there playing 64-key instruments.

 

For those who have a 64-key English, or who have had one in the past, I would love to hear your observations. How do/did the larger size and weight affect the way you play? Are there ergonomics issues? Can you actually reach the notes on the upper and lower end? Does it work better/worse for particular styles of music?

 

In case it's relevant, I play primarily classical music on the English, with a bit of folk and ITM for fun.

[Geoff Wooff]

So, your proposed 64 key ... what is the range ? I assume by your name description that it starts at C below 'middle C' and runs up to the bird whistle notes, to G above the normal treble range.

 

For your classical music this will be a usefull beast but you are correct in thinking there could be 'reach' problems... perhaps dependant on hand size and shape.

 

I have never owned a 64 but find that even on a 56 there can be problems, not so much of being able to reach the buttons but of comfortably manipulating the notes when shifting from one end of the keyboard to the other. The angle of one's fingers as they press the buttons can get extreme at either end of the keyboard, especially if other fingers are engaged further along.

 

The position of the thumbstraps, which usually align with the A and G (the upper edge of the straps) of a Treble , are sometimes positioned differently on longer keyboards to help with reaching all the notes... this can make switching instruments a little disorienting.

 

Size; for classical and more complex arrangements I prefer to use my Baritone/Treble ( extended downwards a whole octave from a Treble) which is an 8 inch Octagon... large yes, but I have used this for ITM too. It just needs a bit more of a shove to get changes in dynamics.

 

For Cello repertoire the extra notes are usefull too.

[Randy Stein]

I play a Wheatstone 56 key Aeola. I also play classical (Bach, Kriesler, etc) and find that all the music, even harmonics are served well by my instrument. The extended range is fun but does your music literature support the added range for the extra cost.

 

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[JimLucas]

...I'm down to choosing between a Lachenal New Model treble and a 64-key Aeola extended tenor-treble in fantastic condition....

 

Theoretically, all that range, in a package only barely larger and heavier than a Jackie, seems like a great idea. I could play clarinet and cello repertoire, in addition to flute and violin! No more worrying about range ever again! Real bass notes!

I love my 64-button tenor-treble and play it frequently, but I should warn you that you're being a bit overenthusiatic about the range. It only goes down to the low C of a viola, not to the octave lower C of the cello. Okay for the clarinet, which I understand bottoms out on the D (written as E for a Bb clarinet) just above the TT's low C, but you'd have to play cello parts an octave above where the cello does them.

 

I can't help noticing that there aren't a whole lot of people out there playing 64-key instruments.

Well, there aren't a whole lot of 64-button concertinas in existence, though that's probably because there hasn't been a huge demand for them over the past 150 years or so. Most players have been satisfied with a 48 treble, and most of the rest with a 56 tenor treble.

 

For those who have a 64-key English, or who have had one in the past, I would love to hear your observations. How do/did the larger size and weight affect the way you play?

For me the size and weight aren't great factors, but I'm probably not the best example to use, as I have two larger, heavier (and lower in pitch) concertinas that I often play while standing. Still, I don't think you should have much trouble, aside from getting used to the different feel in the very beginning. That's where practice comes in. The more you do it, the more you become used to it.

 

Are there ergonomics issues?

Each of these individual "issues" is an ergonomic detail. As I see it, trying to generalize "ergonomics" completely misses the point. So I'll just proceed to the next detail.

 

Can you actually reach the notes on the upper and lower end?

I can, with room to spare. But...

 

...you are correct in thinking there could be 'reach' problems... perhaps dependant on hand size and shape.

Hand size and shape are always factors, all too often ignored by those giving advice, but the way you hold the instrument also matters. I keep my loops tight and have only the tip of the thumb inserted. If you push your thumbs completely through the loops, you lose that length in reaching for the low notes. (I find there's less of a difference in reaching the high notes.) Some folks say they have trouble even on a 48-button treble, while on my 64-button -- which has an additional row at each of the low and high ends -- I have no difficulty, and I believe I could even reach one more at the bottom and at least one more row at the top. (By the way, I don't believe my fingers are longer than average.)

 

The position of the thumbstraps, which usually align with the A and G (the upper edge of the straps) of a Treble , are sometimes positioned differently on longer keyboards to help with reaching all the notes... this can make switching instruments a little disorienting.

I think that's more likely on a baritone-treble. Tenor-trebles generally have the thumb loops positioned the same as trebles with respect to the actual notes (e.g., middle C). In any case, I think that's something one gets used to with practice. The more you switch back and forth, the more it becomes second nature, needing no adjustment. After all, how many people who have two cars with differently positioned gearshift levers need to look when reaching to change gears after they've just gotten into "the other" car?

 

Does it work better/worse for particular styles of music?

Not in my experience. The main difference would be in manipulating the bellows for dynamics, but that shouldn't be different for different kinds of music.

 

Well, if you haven't stopped reading already because of the length of my reply, I do have some advice:

 

For what you expect to play, you probably don't need the "extended" notes at the top. While I don't know the entire violin repertoire, I have tried reading a fair amount, and I only recall two pieces that went above the highest C of a treble English, both of which (if I remember correctly) were by Paganini. So you might be just as happy with a 56-button TT.

 

On the other hand, I don't think you would find the additonal 8 notes of the 64-button to be a noticeable detriment. The reeds are tiny, and any extra weight hardly noticeable. (Size? My friend's 56 is the same size as my own 64.) So the main factor should be the price. If this 64 is priced about the same as a comparable 56, I think you should set your priorities -- whether to buy now or get one later when it better suits your budget (and your marriage) -- the same as if it were a 56. And if it's significantly more expensive than a comparable 56, then I would certainly recommend waiting.

[Josh Birch]

Thanks so much to everyone for your thoughts and advice! It is indeed the tenor to extended treble range (C3 to G7) on this instrument. I can't really imagine needing (or wanting to hear, honestly) the notes higher than C7, but I know that theoretically flautists and violinists are sometimes asked to play those notes. On the other hand, I would love to be able to go down into the lowest clarinet range and octave-up cello, etc.

 

Jim, I think I'll take your advice. I'm sure this instrument is more expensive than just a tenor-treble would be, and I really don't need any more range than that. It's a wrench, because it's a particularly fine example of its species, but I think I'll let it go and approach the issue of greater range later on. There's a lot to be said for domestic harmony, not to mention staying out of debtor's prison.

Thanks again to all.

[ceemonster]

does the lachenal new model have riveted action or post action? i can't remember what the new models had, i know most of the edeophones had post even though they were top-of-the-line, so not sure about the New Models. what did the seller say about the action, and about its condition?

[SteveS]

does the lachenal new model have riveted action or post action? i can't remember what the new models had, i know most of the edeophones had post even though they were top-of-the-line, so not sure about the New Models. what did the seller say about the action, and about its condition?

The New Model TT I have has post action.

Edited February 13, 2014 by SteveS

[ceemonster]

i guess the Morse Geordie Tenor model wouldn't meet your needs? it goes as low as a TT, but not as high, only to "High C" plus the next c# and the next "D" above "High C." that is plenty for my needs since i'm largely world folk/dance-based genres, not classical. i have one with an upgrade to TAM reeds, ordered it last feb or spring or something, got it in june. my one disappointment in it, and for me it is a big issue, is that its lung power or volume capcity is comparable more to a brass-reeded wood-end concertina rather than a steel reeds/brass-framed wood-end concertina. it's weird, because the TAM reeds do have a "brighter" voice personality than BB's standard super-durall factory reeds. but it does not have the volume or robustness to the voice that i want and need, and is significantly mellower than a wood-ended 1939 Aeola at my local sesh. it sounds fantastic, and plenty loud in the house, studio, kitchen, or any other non-noisy place, such as my (parked) automobile or my office, both of which i take it to for practice. but not good for starting/leading tune sets in a pub session and not good for dance-band music.

 

other than that complaint, the instrument is absolutely delightful to play and it sounds gorgeous. the response of the TAM reeds and the bb's riveted-action mechanism are wonderful, and people ooh and aah over its tone (providing we're in a noise-free enough room or venue that they can hear its full range of tone)....not sure what your needs are in terms of how loud you want, and how high you want the note range, but it is a really, really cool instrument. fast, easy to play, and beautiful-sounding...and brand-new...

 

these 4 Geordie Tenor clips are with BB's standard "super-durall" factory reeds...

 

here are 2 classical clips of the Geordie Tenor:

 

http://vimeo.com/34335011

http://vimeo.com/34213147

 

here are 2 other Geordie Tenor clips...

 

I must say the first one sounds louder than mine, which infuriates me since the brighter TAM reeds i ordered should be louder...though, certainly, sound clips can be very deceptive so who knows...the Morse instruments are known for being mellow, and are prized for this trait by many Morse players...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmfAFGiaQOE

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFZMLG1FhO4

Edited February 13, 2014 by ceemonster

[JimLucas]

does the lachenal new model have riveted action or post action? i can't remember what the new models had, i know most of the edeophones had post even though they were top-of-the-line, so not sure about the New Models. what did the seller say about the action, and about its condition?

 

As far as I know, post action was standard on all Lachenals, including both New Models and Edeophones.

 

And for what it's worth, I haven't found that to be a problem on any New Model or Edeophone in good condition that I've played. No sluggishness, no noise, nor any other detriment.

[JimLucas]

Thanks so much to everyone for your thoughts and advice! It is indeed the tenor to extended treble range (C3 to G7) on this instrument. I can't really imagine needing (or wanting to hear, honestly) the notes higher than C7, but I know that theoretically flautists and violinists are sometimes asked to play those notes. On the other hand, I would love to be able to go down into the lowest clarinet range and octave-up cello, etc.

 

And don't forget the repertoire of the viola itself, when you finally find yourself able to afford a tenor-treble.

[ceemonster]

[And for what it's worth, I haven't found that to be a problem on any New Model or Edeophone in good condition that I've played. No sluggishness, no noise, nor any other detriment.] that is nice to know, and interesting, given the press this action has received in other discussions...

[Josh Birch]

Well, after realizing that Juliette Daum is actually playing what appears to be very same model of tenor-extended treble in some of her recordings and videos, I caved in and asked to be shipped both on approval. I'll post my observations on the 64-key business once it arrives...

 

Somehow I've managed never to have played a Lachenal before so I'm not sure exactly what to expect there. The seller reports the action is smooth and quiet.

 

ceemonster, I'll PM you about the Geordie...

[JimLucas]

Well, after realizing that Juliette Daum is actually playing what appears to be very same model of tenor-extended treble in some of her recordings and videos, I caved in and asked to be shipped both on approval. I'll post my observations on the 64-key business once it arrives...

 

Somehow I've managed never to have played a Lachenal before so I'm not sure exactly what to expect there. The seller reports the action is smooth and quiet.

 

Well, Lachenal made many different models, at various levels of quality. The 12-sided Edeophone was their deluxe model. The New Model was their top of the line 6-sided equivalent to the Edeophone. Some people consider it a step lower than the Edeo, but my experience (I've played several, though not dozens, of each) is that it's at least as good, and I've known a few individuals who consider it superior. That's in general, of course, as each instrument is individual. I've tried metal, ebony, and amboyna ended versions of each, and each has its own personality.

[Syncopepper]

I have a 56 key extended-treble New Model. While I have not had the opportunity to play an Edeophone I have been able to compare the New Model to an Aeola and found it equal. The pivot post action was just as responsive as the riveted action.

 

I have had some problems, however, with the “Cranked Arm Syndrome” issue currently under discussion in the instrument construction and repair section. Briefly this problem occurs with levers that are routed around other lever assemblies by being bent in odd angles. These angles tend to create small amounts of torque when the keys are depressed that, over time, excessively wear both the lever and the post where they meet. The additional torque movement due to the wear in turn creates alignment problems with springs and pads.

 

Close examination of the results on my EC makes me think that the more keys on an EC the more this problem is likely to be manifested due to the increased number of odd angles in levers and the closer tolerances. If so I would think that a 56 and 64 key ECs might be more prone to this problem than those with fewer keys.

[JimLucas]

I have a 56 key extended-treble New Model. While I have not had the opportunity to play an Edeophone I have been able to compare the New Model to an Aeola and found it equal. The pivot post action was just as responsive as the riveted action.

 

I have had some problems, however, with the “Cranked Arm Syndrome” issue currently under discussion in the instrument construction and repair section.Briefly this problem occurs with levers that are routed around other lever assemblies by being bent in odd angles. ...

 

Close examination of the results on my EC makes me think that the more keys on an EC the more this problem is likely to be manifested due to the increased number of odd angles in levers and the closer tolerances. If so I would think that a 56 and 64 key ECs might be more prone to this problem than those with fewer keys.

 

That makes sense, though I would think that it should also depend on the size of the instrument (ends). With larger ends, the levers would be longer, with more leeway for non-"twisted" paths for the levers. And even where "twisted" might be necessary, the angles should be less, thus generating less torque. (That's my reasoning. I haven't done a thorough analysis.) So a standard-size 56-key extended treble might be more likely to have this problem than a standard-size (but larger) 56-key tenor-treble?