40 Button Anglo: Kato Video Prompts Some Questions

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Update.

Whilst searching through my archive of plans in regards to another inquiry, I came across a set for a 41 button model which provides the reversals of the E & Eb (11 & 12 on the posted layout). The additional button for these is shown positioned centrally below the bottom row on the left side.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Geoffrey

Edited February 11, 2014 by Geoffrey Crabb

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Geoff, that's a great diagram, but nothing like my Crabb 40-key!

 

I don't doubt it Howard. Many variations were required and made.

 

Geoffrey

[adrian brown]

Just a few comments on various posts in this thread: Dan, while I agree with your excellent summery of these 30+ anglos, I wouldn't describe the note layouts as having "one set of random locations for the press, and another set of random locations for the draw." When you start to play legato phrases on these instruments, it's surprising just how well the notes of the scale fit your fingers. The notes are kept well enough away from each other that it's rare that you have to just the same finger for adjacent notes in a scale. I accept there are a lot of variations between instruments, but most of the Jeffries I've played have a core 34 or so buttons that seem to be tuned the same way.

Of course a 38+ anglo will give you a lot more possibilities to play legato phrases, but an added benefit is that it will also give you more flexibility in your bouncy, in-out phrases too. With notes available in both directions, you can avoid a draw/push/push/draw, or push/draw/draw/push sequence, where the 3rd note might not match the 'pah' you've chosen, and the feel of the passage might have a 'hiccup'. Of course this might be the effect you want, and to a certain extent, you can get around this with a good finger technique. But it's nice to have the choice of both and the possibility of a regular push/draw/push/draw sequence, even if your fingers might have to fly all over the place to acheive this.

Gary, I would imagine it's the space consideration that rules out doubling the low notes of the instrument. There are so many important notes that need to have their reversals before the low F and E, whose reeds are huge in comparison. The bottom line is probably that you can't have everything you want, and still keep the instrument to a reasonable size.

The only sound example I know of vintage playing on these instruments (so please correct me if there are others!) is the brilliant 1903 "Wedding March and Carnival" by Dutch Daly. Here's a direct link to the sound file on Wes William's excellent resource site. Towards the end of the second piece, there's some marvellous passage work with an enviable regularity, that I've never heard anyone achieve on an anglo.

Adrian

Edited February 12, 2014 by aybee

[d.elliott]

here is another thought. i dont' really understand this, but per a more knowledgeable poster than i on another thread, there was something about the "extra" buttons on this big anglos being outside the sonic core of the sound board or something like that, such that they did not sound as loudly and fully as the 30 "core" buttons. perhaps people are put off by that....

 

From my perspective, as a repairer- restorer, I do not know about sonic cores, but I do know that on 35 key and up, there are so many compromises in design and construction that consistent: tuning, valve operation, and tonal quality are frequently compromised.

 

The bottom end big reeds are cramped into too smaller chamber, and are made too small and then weighted to pitch. this means that the not can flatten at 'energetic' play and takes more time to spin up to it's pitch frequency.

 

All reeds from the middle down tend to be in chambers too small.

 

There is not enough space in the chamber and around the reed pan vent for the valves to sit in, and in some cases to land onto. The valves then need clipping, resulting in a tendency to not lie flat. In addition the slightest deviation in chamber wall from verticality from the reed pan and the valve catches giving the attendant valve noise and response issues.

 

Some instruments need chamber stops removing just to get a reed out for adjustments.

 

The larger reeds can sound flat as I said, evenness of response is an issue, the middle upper parts of the instrument's compass perform better than the lower end.Some of these issues are also present in the small carcassed English system 56 key extended up trebles, however not to the same degree.

 

I know that there is a degree of versatility in the 38/40/+ keyed instruments, but surely the play-ability, quality of sound and the weight should also be considered as part of the buying decision. These instruments are not un-maintainable, yes they can be a bit of a pig, but that is not the issue, but I do feel that people who may buy these concertinas ought to be aware of, and look out for, these potential characteristics when they spend around 20 to 25% of an annual income on them.

[Dan Worrall]

Just a few comments on various posts in this thread: Dan, while I agree with your excellent summery of these 30+ anglos, I wouldn't describe the note layouts as having "one set of random locations for the press, and another set of random locations for the draw." When you start to play legato phrases on these instruments, it's surprising just how well the notes of the scale fit your fingers. The notes are kept well enough away from each other that it's rare that you have to just the same finger for adjacent notes in a scale. I accept there are a lot of variations between instruments, but most of the Jeffries I've played have a core 34 or so buttons that seem to be tuned the same way.

 

Hi Adrian,

 

You're right, of course! The notes aren't truly random. Even on a 30 button CG, it is amazing how straightforward the Bb scale is, for example. What I was trying to get at is that playing a 40 button 'like a duet' (i.e., unidirectionally) is a much different proposition that the along-the-row order of 'push-pull-push-pull-push-pull-pull-push' that most of us have drilled into our subconscious at an early stage in playing, and that perhaps, of one wants smoothness and multi-key ability above all else, it is best to forget the pursuit of such order and just memorize all the button locations of the chromatic scale on the push, and then the different locations on the pull. That seems to be what Kato is doing.

 

BTW, I looked at your website from the location on your post. Wonderful music!!

 

Now, on your Dutch Daly comment, I'm not too sure that he was playing an Anglo on that recording. Daly played MacCann duet, English and Anglo. I would guess that he was playing the MacCann there, not an Anglo. Why would he put so much effort into smoothing out an Anglo for that piece when his main squeeze seems to have been the MacCann, which could easily handle it? I'm not sure though. If you or anyone else knows that it indeed was an Anglo on that recording, then I would stand corrected!

 

Cheers,

Dan

[Robin Harrison]

Just responding to the discussion between Dan & Adrian re. different layouts and "random " buttons.

A few years ago I changed from a solid up-and-down- 2 row melodeon style to a 3 row ADG............I like very much reduction of what (to me) were intrusive bellow reversals.

I tried to take this to a 38 keyed anglo but there are/were still too many reversals at key notes in the scale.

After some experimentation sliding reeds around on a 38 key, I asked Colin Dipper to build me a 36 keyed G/D to a custom layout.

Here are the results...............I've played the tunes once through as if on a 30 key anglo then using the full layout.

It's taken an immense amount of practice to get here. The "re-thinking" of this approach requires that you realize there are always 2 possible buttons to choose from ( press & draw) when your mind, muscle memory and habit are telling you otherwise.

 

Bending the Ferret................ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHoZOyvi3qg

 

Belltower................................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIpltnyKoNM

 

 

The results are yet far from perfect and the bass is a challenge still too far for C.net listeners but with more bass reversal choices as well, I can start to take a more "duet" idea to tunes.

Attached is the key layout.

 

As an afterthought are a couple more examples of videos I recorded for other purposes( our Toronto English session and C.net TOTM) that show a couple of tunes I would previously not have attempted on a 30 key

 

Celebrated Quadrille & Jump at the Sun..............http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkvUp1-jINY

 

Xotis Romanes.......................................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM6OKRRC9cE

 

Thanks

Robin

Dipper layout GD C.net.pdf

Edited February 13, 2014 by Robin Harrison

[Dan Worrall]

Very nice, Robin. Your playing sounds great, and that is a beautiful Dipper. I remember speaking with you about it some years back, when you were in the planning stages. I'm glad for the chance to see how your experiment ended up...thanks!

 

Your playing brings up some questions...I hope I am not making a pest of myself on them.

 

1) How is your layout when playing in a chorded style? Are you happy with that? I know you play Morris, of course.

 

2) In your most legato moments on these pieces that you link to, in those parts when all is smooth and unidirectional, it sounds a bit like an EC. Knowing you, I know that you are an excellent EC player, too - so I know that you won't take that the wrong way! Does this layout give you that much more than your EC would, when played singly (melody only)? Is your new Anglo taking over playing time away from your EC?

 

Dan

[Geoffrey Crabb]

BTW, I looked at your website from the location on your post. Wonderful music!!

 

Now, on your Dutch Daly comment, I'm not too sure that he was playing an Anglo on that recording. Daly played MacCann duet, English and Anglo. I would guess that he was playing the MacCann there, not an Anglo. Why would he put so much effort into smoothing out an Anglo for that piece when his main squeeze seems to have been the MacCann, which could easily handle it? I'm not sure though. If you or anyone else knows that it indeed was an Anglo on that recording, then I would stand corrected!

 

Cheers,

Dan

 

 

Just a thought

 

Whilst Wes has titled the Dutch Daly recordings Anglo Concertina, the record labels actually indicate 'English Concertina'. However, both Maccann and Crane Duets descriptions sometimes included the word English when advertised so if not an English, I think it more likely one of these was used for the recordings. In a letter to Messers Crane and Son dated May 14th 1899, Daly made favourable comments regarding the Crane and concluded with "I hope to introduce it in entertainment in the near future" Bearing in mind that the recordings are 1903 it could well be that Daly performed at least the Wedding March/Carnival of Venice on Crane.

 

Geoffrey

[Robin Harrison]

Thanks Dan for the positive feedback...............not a pest at all. I have found that alternative layouts is not generally interesting so I'm pleased to talk about it.

 

To hear you say that my anglo playing reminds you of an English concertina is an observation I had hoped people might make and is really a great compliment................this is what I was aiming for when I started this journey.

Being able to fully chord any tune was front and central in my decision making.

 

So answer your questions.

 

1.....................Because I am content to be able to play in fewer keys, I have replaced some unwanted reeds with reversals so I have been able to fill out some weaker chords ( G draw for example, A push) and also get complete scales with no bellows reversal to allow me to come closer to a duet style if I wish.

 

2...............interesting this one, in fact I do play the English less. A question for another thread would be to ask people not just "what different concertinas do you play?" but "why do you play different concertinas" It may have already been done, I can't member, but it speaks directly to why I was looking to modify a standard layout.

Although I do play the EC I have never been able to get my head around the EC chordal style that some players on this site do so well. Some tunes seem to me to cry out for a more legato phrasing that is just not possible to do on the anglo........to my satisfaction anyway.

This is why I never chose one system over the other; I knew I would lose too much by giving one up.

But what I can now do is to play tunes I would previously only have attempted on the EC on the anglo in a legato (EC) way and fully accompany them as well ( which I can't do on the EC)

What I had hoped to achieve with this layout,( which is only a modest variation of a 38 key layout), is to be able to sound more like an EC but have access to complete, full chords. Although as yet I can't play them, the layout allows for them...................but at the same time not doing any damage to an accompanied 30 key anglo style.

And this is of course, where Gary's post is pertinent................... there are now loads of choices, all the time.

Finally, I would guess that a largish proportion of anglo players might ask " But why would you want to make an anglo sound like an English concertina ? "

The answer for me comes right back to where I started...................... the fact that the instrument is steering how the tunes are played rather than the musician.

Again, thanks for viewing the videos..

Robin

Edited February 12, 2014 by Robin Harrison

[Don Taylor]

Robin:

 

Your ratonale sounds like the the rationale for the duet conccertina.

 

You must have considered it so why did you reject going with a duet?

 

THx. Don.

[Robin Harrison]

Again.............interesting question.

When I found I could not bring how I liked to play the ADG melodeon to my anglo ( which I had been playing on and off for the Toronto morris men, Kimber style), I bought a couple of Mccann duets and gave them a shot...............

Thought it was an excellent system.................Crane would have worked too.....................but missed the ability to give tunes the punch I was able to with an anglo. This was no reflection on the duet system but my failings.

I even had a rare Wheatstone Hayden for a time as that seemed like the answer but the same issue.

The attack an anglo can give you can be exhilarating, Morris, Sword, Contra etc. But I can play my current Dipper in a different way for different situations.

Glad you're interested.

Robin

[adrian brown]

 

BTW, I looked at your website from the location on your post. Wonderful music!!

 

Now, on your Dutch Daly comment, I'm not too sure that he was playing an Anglo on that recording. Daly played MacCann duet, English and Anglo. I would guess that he was playing the MacCann there, not an Anglo. Why would he put so much effort into smoothing out an Anglo for that piece when his main squeeze seems to have been the MacCann, which could easily handle it? I'm not sure though. If you or anyone else knows that it indeed was an Anglo on that recording, then I would stand corrected!

 

Cheers,

Dan

 

 

Just a thought

 

Whilst Wes has titled the Dutch Daly recordings Anglo Concertina, the record labels actually indicate 'English Concertina'. However, both Maccann and Crane Duets descriptions sometimes included the word English when advertised so if not an English, I think it more likely one of these was used for the recordings. In a letter to Messers Crane and Son dated May 14th 1899, Daly made favourable comments regarding the Crane and concluded with "I hope to introduce it in entertainment in the near future" Bearing in mind that the recordings are 1903 it could well be that Daly performed at least the Wedding March/Carnival of Venice on Crane.

 

Geoffrey

 

Dan and Geoffrey,

 

You're probably correct about the Dutch Daly recording, I was only going on what Wes had indicated on his website, and indeed it sounds more like an anglo than a (big) duet to me, particularly in the quick, short figures at the start of 'Carnival' (compare the articulation of these figures with his comparatively slow repeated notes). Of course this doesn't prove anything and since he played anglo too, he might simply have used bellows reversals on a duet to get this effect. Maybe it's all just between my ears - I so wanted him to have played it on an anglo

 

Adrian

 

[chrism]

Just a few comments to add to this --

 

I've attd the layout for a Dickinson 40 button C/G -- just for interest. (no I haven't -- the site doesn't like my format -- Open Office spreadsheet -- but the layout is nearly identical to the one Geoff gave above)

 

Noting Dave Elliott's comment on chamber sizes etc -- this instrument is a tad bigger -- 8 sided, 6.75 inches A/F rather than the standard 6 sided 6.25 in A/F -- I assume this reduces the difficulty.

 

It's instructive to listen to John Kirkpatrick's playing on this topic (as on all matters Anglo) -- he makes his bellows reversals where the phrasing of the music requires it, not allowing the instrument to dictate them, particularly on song accompaniement. He plays (I think) a 40 button Crabb.

 

Chris

[Bruce Jennings]

On 2/6/2014 at 4:01 PM, Geoffrey Crabb said:

Probably a little late now but the attached may be of interest.

 

Apologies, due to a content error, please see revised attachment in later post.

 

Incidentally, years ago the 40 button Anglo was sometimes referred to as 'The poor mans Duet'.

 

Geoffrey

Greetings Geoffrey,

I trust all is well with you in these uncertain times.

I am downsizing and I’ve had this 40 button Anglo concertina for 30+ years now.

It was passed down to me from previous owners.

I am looking for a value and possible buyer.

I have pictures and can send them to you if you are interested.

Thanks

Blessings

Please advise.

Bruce Jennings

 

[Richard Mellish]

What keys, and what condition is it in? Any chance of a picture?

 

(And could Bruce's post be moved to the Buy & Sell section?)

[Ken_Coles]

Bruce (Richard),

 

An offer to sell should be a separate thread, since this thread should stay here. I'll invite Bruce to post a new thread in Buy & Sell when/if ready.

 

Ken

[Piet]

Good day,

 

I am from South Africa, and play with a 40 key concertina.

as someone refer to the Boer style...yes that is definitely true...we play on all 12 keys....like you get on a piano...

it is not very easy, but i can make it easy for you guys...if someone is interested i have complete lessons i can share with you....included some clips explaining to you how the song sounds like and to play the correct accents....