Jewish Leprechaun Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Well first off I think this has been talked about before, but I can't find the discussion, so if this is pretty much exactly the same question, I'm ok with just being redirected to the old thread. Alrighty so I just finished up retuning my harmonica and it's getting me thinking about ever working on one or two of my slightly out of tune concertina reeds. They aren't really bad enough to mess with them yet, but eventually... So I'm just wondering about some differences to watch out for between tuning brass harmonica and traditional steel concertina reeds. Maybe some dangers to watch out for or is it pretty much the same. Slow and steady, little bit by little bit until you get it perfect. I ended up using Dave Elliott's concertina book tips for tuning concertina reeds and took those tips for tuning the harmonica. Used 400 and 220 grit sandpaper. Along with that, would I run a risk of causing those micro cracks using a grit as course as 220 on the steel concertina reeds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) As far as I've got it that micro-crack danger is more about brass reeds anyay. I had successfully tuned (btw., filed - not scratched!) a range of accordion reeds over the years myself before I dealt with few reeds from my then newly acquired Lachenal EC which where slightly out of tune. I was using just a (metal) nail file, and it worked fine for me. But as to be seen here it's no in-depth knowledge I have to provide... Edited January 8, 2014 by blue eyed sailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I dont know this book, but i am tuning accordion reeds now for a very long time. I also don't know if this mentioned micro cracks are of any matter or not. It may well be that there are microcracks, i only can tell that the behavior of reed (reedstes) vary, some are more critical to tune as others. Using sandpaper glued to smal stick of wood works very well if the sandpaper is replaced very often. I use 600 for the very high reeds and 200 for low reeds. Quality of sandpaper also matters. For most of the reeds high quality small swiss files (GLARDON VALlORBE) work even better. And some better quality diamond nail files work very good to (PFERD DF4112 140mm D126). Using scratchers (or very smal files with broken off top end) to fine tune reeds (for lowering the pitch) is not easy in every case, some reeds react different, so on some reeds the pitch may go in fist place up in pitch a few cents before it goes down (by scratching the reed in a way that it really should go down in pitch at the first place). The reed has to be clicked very strong to settle the pitch. If this effect is connected to the mentioned microcracks or not i don't know. But for the final tuning if one really wants to have the reeds tuned to a minimum of offset the desired value it only can be achieved by not taking out the reed blocks inside the box and by using scratchers as well. In most cases two cents error offset in pitch are tolerable. It also is recommended to do the final tuning after reeds had bin used though playing and a rest of a day at minimum. Temperature of the reeds have to be kept in mind too. Working on the reeds may worm reeds up. Keep room temperature at the same level. Johann Pascher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_holden Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Hi Johann, can you please elaborate upon "The reed has to be clicked very strong to settle the pitch." ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Hi Johann I have no technical argument against scratching reeds, but it is not usual practice with concertinas and it is often viewed as damage in concertina circles. Concertina reeds are typically tuned out of the pans by calculating offsets. The conditions which would have you tuning reeds in situ are accordion related and not relevant to concertinas. Accordion tuning seems a much more demanding task than concertinas, my hat is off to you and all other accordion tuners. I use grobet vallorbe files, there is nothing like the feel of a new one! And diamond files for touch ups. Interesting what you say about reeds needing to be played before final tuning, I find that too, but what does the rest do? Hadn't thought about temperature, must think on that too. best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 One uses a piece of metal plate to support the reed if the reed filed. This plate is pushed between reed tongue and frame while the reed is filed. We call this part "Lösplättechen" in german language. Is nothing special we make this our self from row metal plates, or steel plate as used for reed tongues. With this plate one pulls the tongue very strong far of the frame and then let the reed fall into the frame so the reed sounds through pulling the tongue. This also is used to correct the offset of the tongue to the frame. If the tongue gets pulled to strong the reed offset my be in the end to much and the tongue must be pulled the in the other direction again to correct the gup. If one is used to do the job it is not a problem to have the right feeling how much one can bend a reed tongue without having to correct the gup again. This strong "clicking" (may be in english language you call this "blong ..." or ... ) is usually repeated quite often in the reed making process. Reeds without krackes don't brake by this process the reed settles and the sound gets stronger. Reed that dont settle in pitch do have a problem may be the rivet is not correct or some reed even can't be settled and the reed has to be replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Hi Chis, definitely you are right for english concertinas it is preferable to get along without scratching. I don't have experience with english concertinas. Still i can imagine that it works by writing down the offset taking the reed out tune the offset ant put the reed back in place. Actually i am doing this also for the pre final sage of tuning by only taking the reed blocks out and if i have reed blocks with each reed screwed in place i can do it nearly the same way. But only old boxes or most of may self made boxes use screws. Old Vienna style boxes never used wax. i definitely prefer the old method. Even if a accordion use screws or metal hooks to fasten the reed it is not as with english concertinas. On concertinas the reed slides into a slot so the position for the reed is after putting it back exactly the same in accordions the position may be slightly offset so the pitch may be affected by just taking the reed out and putting it back because the pitch is also to some extent affected by the position on the chamber. As to temperature changes, especially if the reed is taken out and therefore touched with fingers pitch is affected by this temperature changes on the reed, is not much bat in some cases it may matter. So in critical cases on high piched on boxes where i take out the reeds for tuning in the final stage i use pincette. I snot possible to avoid to touch the reed not at all but in this way i keep the time short for worming the reed up. It is all a question how precise the tuning has to be, if one tolerates more offset from the desired pitch then we don't have to talk about this effects at all. concertinas don't have as many reeds to tune as accordions, in the one i tune at the moment are 354 reeds tongues to tune. So one can spend a lot of time to do a good job. Saying concertinas don't have as many reeds to tune as accordions, is only one side of the few. Since the is only one reed sounding the pitch of each reed man be even more important as on accordions without register switches. On accordions with register switches there is usually only the normal tempered scale in use. On didonic boxes this man be different if wanted. And on concertinas it also may be a question of taste how individual chords sound if more as one button is used. I am not into this subject on concertinas but i think that the actual scale tuned on a concertina may vary or did vary in the past. Are usually 5th (two buttons) tuned to sound pure or with a little beat? Is the beet for each 5th the same? If a box has more as one reed for each tone this becomes less relevant and tuning errors don't count as much as with boxes that have one reed sounding. Johann Edited January 8, 2014 by Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_holden Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I see, thanks a lot for the explanation! I would probably call that 'plucking' the reed. I also have a Vallorbe half-round escapement file that I got from a jewellers' supplier. Expensive but it is a lovely thing to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Well first off I think this has been talked about before, but I can't find the discussion, so if this is pretty much exactly the same question, I'm ok with just being redirected to the old thread. Alrighty so I just finished up retuning my harmonica and it's getting me thinking about ever working on one or two of my slightly out of tune concertina reeds. They aren't really bad enough to mess with them yet, but eventually... So I'm just wondering about some differences to watch out for between tuning brass harmonica and traditional steel concertina reeds. Maybe some dangers to watch out for or is it pretty much the same. Slow and steady, little bit by little bit until you get it perfect. I ended up using Dave Elliott's concertina book tips for tuning concertina reeds and took those tips for tuning the harmonica. Used 400 and 220 grit sandpaper. Along with that, would I run a risk of causing those micro cracks using a grit as course as 220 on the steel concertina reeds? I use 400 grit diamond files, I find that 200 grit is too course for control. but remember that the oldies used fine files so you need to be that smooth or better. Micro cracking results from corrosion pitting, or from stress raising deep and sharp notched scratches leading to fatigue failure. the finer the polish the longer the reed life. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) ... the oldies used fine files ... I guess that makes me an "oldie" then, I've never used anything but a good quality saw file, like Steve Dickinson told me to, back in the '70s... Edited January 9, 2014 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) "I've never used anything but a good quality saw file" Look at this files i use: http://www.gesswein.com/p-5453-swiss-precision-files-square.aspx?cpagenum=&sortfield=&sortdirection=&perpage= http://www.gesswein.com/p-4591-valtitan-needle-files-for-hard-metals.aspx 400 grit diamond files: http://www.amazon.de/Pferd-15101062-Diamant-Nadelfeile-DF4112-Flachstumpf/dp/B000ZEG9FQ Edited January 8, 2014 by Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 ... I've never used anything but a good quality saw file ... Look at this files i use ... Yes, the Grobet files are very good, but the Nicholson ones (which are what I used to use, and all I can get locally) have gone to the dogs - they're rubbish these days! Must try the others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewish Leprechaun Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 This is all some great info thanks! Looks like I'll need to invest in some good fine files before I attempt anything more than the harmonica reeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewish Leprechaun Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Well first off I think this has been talked about before, but I can't find the discussion, so if this is pretty much exactly the same question, I'm ok with just being redirected to the old thread. Alrighty so I just finished up retuning my harmonica and it's getting me thinking about ever working on one or two of my slightly out of tune concertina reeds. They aren't really bad enough to mess with them yet, but eventually... So I'm just wondering about some differences to watch out for between tuning brass harmonica and traditional steel concertina reeds. Maybe some dangers to watch out for or is it pretty much the same. Slow and steady, little bit by little bit until you get it perfect. I ended up using Dave Elliott's concertina book tips for tuning concertina reeds and took those tips for tuning the harmonica. Used 400 and 220 grit sandpaper. Along with that, would I run a risk of causing those micro cracks using a grit as course as 220 on the steel concertina reeds? I use 400 grit diamond files, I find that 200 grit is too course for control. but remember that the oldies used fine files so you need to be that smooth or better. Micro cracking results from corrosion pitting, or from stress raising deep and sharp notched scratches leading to fatigue failure. the finer the polish the longer the reed life. Dave Is there a brand for the diamond files you'd recommend over another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_holden Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I balked at the price of top quality diamond files and instead bought some moderately expensive ones from a high-feedback seller on eBay. I immediately regretted it; they are little better than the dirt cheap ones you find on market stalls, and the seller was quite rude to me when I complained about the quality and asked for my money back. The very fine (cut 6) Vallorbe escapement file on the other hand has proved worth its weight in gold. Only used it on brass reeds so far though; I don't yet know how long it will stay sharp cutting spring steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Johann, I am intrigued by your attention to temperature as a variant in tuning and will perform an experiment with this as soon as I can get my new workshop into shape. Because all energy becomes heat I had imagined the reeds would heat up when in use at least as much as fingers might warm them. Tuning for concertinas is variable according to the wishes of the owner. I have had Irish players wanting aspects of 1/4 comma meantone to improve some chords but unless asked I tune everything to equal temperament. Awareness of other possibilities is very low in anglo circles. I only use beating as a guide to check tuning of octaves. Early concertinas were tuned to various unjustified scales and I hear form repairers these do still sometimes appear for tuning. Thanks for the link to the Valitan files, I was unaware of them. I like the sound of their unclogging properties. My file needs are perhaps different to most others in that I am not only tuning, I am carving the initial profile of the reed from stock. For this I use a Grobet Vallorbe 6" flat file. Although they are not cheap I have conditioned myself to throw them away when I find myself compensating for dullness or hunting a sharp spot on the file. I always know when I held onto one for too long; the next reed gets over carved. They are not a mill saw file (single direction toothed) but they do make a lovely job when sharp. For coarser tuning I sometimes use a three square. I keep the files in a kitchen knife block to avoid them touching when not in use. If anyone is looking for file supplies an online jewellery supply house is a good start. Ebay will yield results also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Chris, Very interesting what you tell me. Is good to hear experienced people tell there opinion. As to the tuning scale subject it is about the same here. I own boxes tuned to different systems so one can have a bit of imagination what tuning to a different scale may sound, but it never is only the tuning there are many influences that make the sound of a box different or individual. I always have in mind to get at one time a english concertina for my self and i would like to have it tuned to some type meantone that makes sense on the keylayout. Still i never come over a old english concertina with reasonable price, but i must say i did not really search for one there was always some other work more important in the past. I am also interested about the outcome of your tests. To the files subject i only can completely agree with all you are writing. I only do a complete initial profile on very few reeds for repairs, even if i rivet the complete set myself i did get the curved reed tongues from different factories in the past . In many cases i only do a few chords or single reeds but not the complete set. I am not as careful with my files as you and don't keep each file in a special place. Sure i also take some care to keep the files in best condition as long as possible. I also don't throw away all files once the don't do nice job for tuning the my still useable for some other jobs. I just had a look an and fond that there are over 20 different files in shape and size for all different work on metal and other materials. Very special are the files for filing the slots on the reed frame. So files get in the end quite expensive and therefor i also try to use the files as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Johann, I find if you amortise the cost of a file <$20AUD over a set of reeds, say $3000/60, there is some sense in changing files often. When I was either less educated or more stingy I would occasionally find reeds bending sideways because of the force needed to push a blunt file through them. I probably get 120 reeds from a file so roughly $10 per instrument. What do you use for your slots? I use a Grobet Vall 100mm flat file. The thing which most attracts me to this file is they have the squarest corners of any file I have found. The radius is absolutely tiny. They are about 5mm wide by 2mm. I have a bunch of used files, they are made of nice steel, one day I will find a use for the steel, perhaps I will turn them into knife blades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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