Choosing Key For Irish Tunes - Long

[Sandy Winters]

Wes "The keys of the music notation only have a little bearing on what you'll find them dished up in. They are often written just to fit neatly on the stave."

 

I don't know upon what authority you make that claim.

 

Wes, again "Suffice to say that O'Neill's work only represents the repertoire of emigrant musicians in the Chicago area long ago - the question is about keys today."

 

If O'Neill's first book was written sooo long ago that it is no longer a good source how is it that you seem to know what standards were used by O'Neill and his transcriber James O'Neill to choose the keys?? I can tell you from my experience that 90+% of the key choices in the 2 O'Neill books are still the commonly accepted keys at sessions (at least 90% of them :-) Of course you'll find the odd session that won't subscribe to the common key choices (E flat sessions, those are great for concertinists:-)

 

As for O'Neill's work being done "long ago", it's not like it was the dark ages. There are still players alive and performing in Chicago whose parents, and certainly grandparents, would have been contemporaries of O'Neill's. Just a few years ago I was present at a ceremony honoring O'Neill at which his grandaughter was present.

 

*If* you'd like to play with other musicians in an Irish session setting you'll have to learn to play your tunes in the common session keys. That seems seem pretty obvious to me. If you have no interest or intention to play with others in a session environment then certainly your criteria for choosing a key may be different. But if you show up at a session and start playing a tune in 'your' key rather than 'their' key or 'our' key you'd better know your tunes well, cuz you'll be soloing.

 

The idea that "you don't-" (quoting Wes) decide what key to play in seems counterproductive. Do you mean you play it in any key, randomly, each time you play it?? Or you know it well enough in all 12 keys to play it in any situation?? Of course not. Everyone has a primary key that you'll learn a tune in and maybe you'll learn it in 1 or 2 other keys later. But a decision is most definitely made when first learning the tune. It's not a matter of being "correct", it's a matter of being practical.

Edited October 15, 2004 by Sandy Winters

[Sandy Winters]

Wes-"So what we are trying to discuss is why certain instruments - if leading the session - will pick certain keys."

 

I thought we were trying to answer a new member's question as to how to decide what key to learn a tune in as a beginning concertina player. At least that's what I was trying to do.

 

To make it simple. Learn The Wise Maid in D. Learn The Earl's Chair in D (and don't use that gawdawful Bm chord on the first beat, it's a G chord;-). Stop in at 99 out of 100 sessions and join in the music.

[JimLucas]

...O'Neill's original publication 'Music of Ireland, 1850 tunes' published in 1903 (I think?? Jim???)...

1903, yes.

 

...O'Neill's book "Irish Minstrels and Musicians" published in the 1920's,...

1913, actually, and his Irish Folk Music was published in 1910. The rest of his books were all collections of tunes, the later ones with arrangements by Selena O'Neill. The last of these was originally published in 1922.

 

...he only devotes no more than 2 or 3 pages to the accordion and does not mention the concertina at all.

I thought it was less than that, but I didn't find "accordion" in the index, so it was hard to check. In a quick browse I found only the short (less than a page), tongue-in-cheek story of Mark Twain teaching himself the accordion and torturing his neighbors. (Which kind of accordion is not made clear.) However,

The titled sketches inclulde 191 Uilleann pipers, 54 fiddlers, 38 harpers, 19 pipemakers, 12 fluters, 10 warpipers, 8 music collectors, one accordion player, and one ceili band.  No players of the concertina, banjo or tinwhistle are mentioned.  These numbers certainly are not intended to reflect the relative sizes of each population.  Rather, they show Captain O'Neill's attitude as to which instruments are properly traditional ones.

Barry, by the way, is accomplished on both uilleann pipes and English concertina.

[JimLucas]

If you open O'Neill's original publication 'Music of Ireland, 1850 tunes' ... you'll find that most of the reels, jigs and hornpipes, by a large percentage, are in G, D or their related and/or relative minors.

The keys of the music notation only have a little bearing on what you'll find them dished up in. They are often written just to fit neatly on the stave.

While I've run across a few song collections where that's true -- and the collectors said so, -- I've never run across any tune collections where that was suggested, either by the author or by comparing tunes, keys, and staves. I believe O'Neill indicates that he notated the tunes in the keys the musicians played them in, with the possible exception that tunes played on pipes or flutes in unusual keys (e.g., a "flat" set of pipes) would be transcribed as if they used the same fingering on an instrument at standard pitch.

 

...O'Neill's work only represents the repertoire of emigrant musicians in the Chicago area...

Only about half true. His sources included earlier tune collections, private manuscripts, amd cooperating collectors, many from Ireland itself, but also from elsewhere in the US and I believe as far away as Australia. He does say, "... more than one-half of the contents of O'Neill's Music of Ireland was noted down from the singing or playing of residents of Chicago...." But I believe most of these were born in Ireland and learned their music various parts of that country.

 

...long ago - the question is about keys today.

"Long ago" is a relative term. Agreed that we're discussing keys used today, but a related question could be whether the "standard" keys for any tunes have changed since O'Neill's time, and if so, why.

[Sandy Winters]

I believe O'Neill indicates that he notated the tunes in the keys the musicians played them in

Just to be clear, Francis *O'Neill* did not do the "notation". James O'Neill (no relation) did the actual transcribing of tunes. However it seems important to mention that both were very accomplished and respected players so in addition to being observers of the tradition there were also members of the tradition.

[JimLucas]

I believe O'Neill indicates that he notated the tunes in the keys the musicians played them in

Just to be clear, Francis *O'Neill* did not do the "notation". James O'Neill (no relation) did the actual transcribing of tunes.

I guess I should have said "published", rather than "notated". Thanks for the correction.

[Tina]

JohnEverist

 

have fun - learn to play the tunes both in the common and the personal favorite key.

 

(Sadly enough) I only got one concertina but found I still have all tones - and I do love the lower keys from their sound.

 

So I tried my luck with The Drunken Sailor (d minor) after the playing of Noel Hill - needed years to play it fairly smooth though.

 

Yeah have fun !

 

 

Edited to add - I love the upper row, too.

 

Edited again - thought I'd better say TOP row

Edited October 18, 2004 by Tina

[wes williams]

The idea that "you don't-" (quoting Wes) decide what key to play in seems counterproductive. Do you mean you play it in any key, randomly, each time you play it?? Or you know it well enough in all 12 keys to play it in any situation?? Of course not. Everyone has a primary key that you'll learn a tune in and maybe you'll learn it in 1 or 2 other keys later. But a decision is most definitely made when first learning the tune. It's not a matter of being "correct", it's a matter of being practical.

Sandy, you are sadly misquoting me. What I said was that you need to be prepared for tunes to be dished up in a different key - not necessarily the one that the dots tell you. Mostly it will be D/G/A or relative minors, but then again, you could hit a session where they play a lot in 'C' - perhaps because there is (or was) a one row box player - or Bb and F, because the local fiddlers like the sound of those keys. Did I ever say *every* key?? No, of course not!

Wes "The keys of the music notation only have a little bearing on what you'll find them dished up in. They are often written just to fit neatly on the stave."

Sandy: I don't know upon what authority you make that claim.

'Authorities' are the last thing we need! Its a personal observation based on my experiences over the last 35 years of playing, absorbing and researching this instrument, its music and its players - and what I've learned about how other "authorities" in the past have caused problems and misconceptions today. Other opinions differ - Jim's does - but so much the better!

 

And to be constructive - I'd think that more recent collections (eg Breathnach, Bulmer & Sharpley, Sullys or similar) would be more representative of 'the most common session keys' than O'Neills.

[JimLucas]

So I tried my luck with The Drunken Sailor (d minor) after the playing of Noel Hill...

Is that the one I know as The Tipsy Sailor?

(To me The DrunkenSailor is a shanty. Context raises its ugly lovely head, once again. )

Well, maybe not. I play The Tipsy Sailor in Gm, as does a woman I met who said she learned it from Noel.

[JimLucas]

Sandy, you are sadly misquoting me.

Wes, I don't think he misquoted you so much as he misinterpreted you.

He said, "How do you decide keys of tunes in the Irish tradition??"

And you did reply, "You don't...."

But I did think you made it clear that you meant, "You don't; the session does," and not, "You don't decide; you pick a key at random."

 

Its a personal observation based on my experiences over the last 35 years of playing, absorbing and researching this instrument, its music and its players - and what I've learned about how other "authorities" in the past have caused problems and misconceptions today. Other opinions differ - Jim's does....

I would say that our experiences differ, and thus our "observations", rather than our opinions. I'd be very interested to learn -- either here or off line -- what experiences you have of transcribers noting a tune down in, e.g., Bb, when it was played in D, or (more likely?) vice versa, and whether you have solid evidence as to why they did so. I'm the first to admit that my own experience doesn't include everything that's ever been done, or even a significant part of it.

 

But another factor that may sometimes have come into play () is that the defintion of "standard" pitch has varied not only over they years, but among different musical communities. Aside from various versions of "old pitch" for concertinas, the highland pipers' A is considered Bb by modern orchestral standards, while what is written as A for Northumbrian pipes sounds as a G by modern standards, at least when played on older sets of pipes.

 

'Authorities' are the last thing we need!

In the spirit that I believe you mean that, I agree completely. We need observers reporting their experiences, not "authorities" declaring what we should accept. And the more observers the better, because no one person can observe everything, or even a small part..

 

...I'd think that more recent collections (eg Breathnach, Bulmer & Sharpley, Sullys or similar) would be more representative of 'the most common session keys' than O'Neills.

I would expect them to be more representative of currently popular session tunes. Though I certainly don't know all the tunes in any of the references, I can't think of any examples where the keys differed between O'Neill's and more modern sources, for tunes found in both. Can you?

[bill_mchale]

A thought has occured to me; with all the talk about what is in O'Neill's and other modern sources we have forgotten that there are a number of tunes with 2 or 3 common tunes. For example, I can think of several tunes that are commonly played in a different key in New York than they are in the Baltimore/DC area, even though there is alot of cross pollination between the two areas. I am sure the same is true in different areas in Ireland. I think it quite likely that the standard key for a given tune in a region was determined by the person who first made that tune popular. It is likely that back more than 50 years ago, before cheap portable tape recorders were available that many musicians would hear a tune once or twice when they were visiting an area and then when they brought it home and figured it out from memory that it would often have its key transposed. A Whistle player might hear something played in C but figure it out in G or maybe someone heard a Scottish tunes on the Pipes in A (or Bb pretending to be A ) and transposed it to D when they played it on the Fiddle.

 

--

Bill

[JimLucas]

...I can think of several tunes that are commonly played in a different key in New York than they are in the Baltimore/DC area, even though there is alot of cross pollination between the two areas.

Which ones? I'm curious. And what percentage of the total repertoire, I wonder?

 

I am sure the same is true in different areas in Ireland.

Quite possible, but would they be the same tunes?

 

I think it quite likely that the standard key for a given tune in a region was determined by the person who first made that tune popular.

That's one possibility. Another is some strong personality insisting on a particular key, even if the local group was previously used to playing it in a different key. Two tunes where I've seen that happen are Atholl Highlanders and Drops of Brandy, both simple tunes that are easy to play in more than one key on various instruments.

 

It is likely that back more than 50 years ago, before cheap portable tape recorders were available that many musicians would hear a tune once or twice when they were visiting an area and then when they brought it home and figured it out from memory that it would often have its key transposed.

Frequently it wouldn't just be the key, but there would be other variations, too. Memory is notoriously imperfect. Some changes might be minor, little more than ornamentation, but others might be enough to significantly alter the tune. And it still happens today. I've done it, myself, both changing keys and -- as I later discovered -- altering tunes.

 

...maybe someone heard a Scottish tunes on the Pipes in A (or Bb pretending to be A ) and transposed it to D when they played it on the Fiddle.

Or on the whistle. I first learned The Clumsy Lover in A-mixolydian (same key signature as D-major), from a whistle player. Only later did I discover that it was composed on/for the highland pipes. Even in Ireland, some folks play it in Bb-mix, because they learned it by playing with highland pipers.

[Tina]

So I tried my luck with The Drunken Sailor (d minor) after the playing of Noel Hill...

Is that the one I know as The Tipsy Sailor?

(To me The DrunkenSailor is a shanty. Context raises its ugly lovely head, once again. )

Well, maybe not. I play The Tipsy Sailor in Gm, as does a woman I met who said she learned it from Noel.

Jim - could have been me lol - at least I remember a guy I once met who played it (and he was the only one) (and it was you, btw)

[JimLucas]

Jim - could have been me lol - at least I remember a guy  ... (and it was you, btw)

At Bielefeld, was it? Small world... especially on the internet.

 

Good to "see" you, again.

[bill_mchale]

...I can think of several tunes that are commonly played in a different key in New York than they are in the Baltimore/DC area, even though there is alot of cross pollination between the two areas.

Which ones? I'm curious. And what percentage of the total repertoire, I wonder?

Well Cooley's Jig is one, and there is a Polka I don't know the name of, I am not sure if it is a New York thing or not, but I did meet some people in the Catskills a year or so ago who play Egan's Polka in D (They may not have been from NY since it was Irish Arts Week). I am only up to about 30 tunes right now (Hey I have been only playing for two years, listening all my life, but you don't learn much music when all you ever do is whistle along with the tune ) and I usually don't figure out what Major key the tune is a mode off prior to figuring out how to actually play the tune; there might be alot more tunes played in different keys between NY and Baltimore. I would guess that there are approximately 500 tunes that one might expect to show up at any given regular session though there probably another 500-1000 tunes that show up occasionally; guys like Billy McComiskey and Peter Fitzgerald literally know thousands and there are several younger players (in their early to late 20s) who are probably also over 1000 tunes each.

 

I am sure the same is true in different areas in Ireland.

Quite possible, but would they be the same tunes?

 

Well I am sure that in at least some cases it would be the same tunes since the tunes might have been brought to Baltimore or NY by different People.

 

I think it quite likely that the standard key for a given tune in a region was determined by the person who first made that tune popular.

That's one possibility. Another is some strong personality insisting on a particular key, even if the local group was previously used to playing it in a different key. Two tunes where I've seen that happen are Atholl Highlanders and Drops of Brandy, both simple tunes that are easy to play in more than one key on various instruments.

I would guess that the latter is a more recent phenomena though. And sometimes it is not even at the instigation of the "strong" personality but merely as a result of their expressed preference. In Baltimore, Boston, NY and Chicago as well as in areas of Ireland (and of course other areas I have not mentioned) it is not too unusual to have people who have produced nationally or internationally recognized recordings show up at a session or people who have won All Ireland Championships. Us regular session players will tend to want to emulate them as much as possible reasoning that they know what they are doing better than we do .

 

It is likely that back more than 50 years ago, before cheap portable tape recorders were available that many musicians would hear a tune once or twice when they were visiting an area and then when they brought it home and figured it out from memory that it would often have its key transposed.

Frequently it wouldn't just be the key, but there would be other variations, too. Memory is notoriously imperfect. Some changes might be minor, little more than ornamentation, but others might be enough to significantly alter the tune. And it still happens today. I've done it, myself, both changing keys and -- as I later discovered -- altering tunes.

Oh I am quite sure, in fact I have suspected something like this happened with the Irish Washerwoman and the Swallowtail Jig. And the changes in the ornamentation are pretty standard based on regional styles and instruments (I know I do a bunch of A rolls in a number of tunes but I am not sure that is an ornament that is all that common or even possible in fiddle playing).

...maybe someone heard a Scottish tunes on the Pipes in A (or Bb pretending to be A ) and transposed it to D when they played it on the Fiddle.

Or on the whistle. I first learned The Clumsy Lover in A-mixolydian (same key signature as D-major), from a whistle player. Only later did I discover that it was composed on/for the highland pipes. Even in Ireland, some folks play it in Bb-mix, because they learned it by playing with highland pipers.

 

Well I was just throwing out some theoretical cases, but I am glad to see my hypothesis has some validation with experience... guess we can move it to a theory .

 

--

Bill

[Sandy Winters]

Wes, the first two words of your post (Oct 15 2004, 07:57 AM ) were "You don't". If you'd prefer not to be quoted for saying or writing something then don't say/write it. I'd prefer not to be accused of "sadly misquoting" you when the words are there for all to see. Perhaps you sadly mis-spoke, but I did not mis-quote. Let's not wake the dark spirit of the bad old days of The Scandinavian Wars :-)

 

As for "misinterpreting" what you said (quoting Jim) I don't believe I was too far off in my interpretation. My reply was 'tongue in cheek' but perhaps a bit too sarcastic. That's why I clearly said "Of course not". I didn't believe that you really meant what you were saying.

 

Wes-"What I said was that you need to be prepared for tunes to be dished up in a different key - not necessarily the one that the dots tell you. Mostly it will be D/G/A or relative minors, but then again, you could hit a session where they play a lot in 'C' - perhaps because there is (or was) a one row box player - or Bb and F, because the local fiddlers like the sound of those keys."

 

Once again you seem to ignore the original question, which I take to be a sincere effort to ask for advice on determining a key when learning new tunes. It's just not that difficult. The common keys are not a secret and can be determined quite easily with a little guided effort. Your erudite discussion of the various keys that may or may not be found in sessions is all very interesting, and true, but of little value, in my humble opinion, to the new member asking advice. How does the above statement help our new friend?? It's really no advice at all.

[Sandy Winters]

Of course the great majority of tunes require no discussion as to key. If somebody calls out The Silver Spear, you know it's D, Gravel Walks, it's A dorian, Christmas Eve, it's G, Kid on the Mountain, it's Em. And so on.

 

But there is a subset of tunes played at Chicago sessions that have ambiguous key choices, usually determined by what instruments are present. A few of them off the top of my head would be "Out on the Ocean (G or A)", "Foxhunters Reel (G or A)", and "Jug of Punch (D dorian or E dorian)". The determination of key has to do with whether the session is fiddle heavy or flute heavy more than any thing else, and on this small subset of tunes the key is always discussed and agreed upon before starting the tune.

[Tina]

Jim - could have been me lol - at least I remember a guy  ... (and it was you, btw)

At Bielefeld, was it? Small world... especially on the internet.

 

Good to "see" you, again.

Yes - and we played it together - its so nice that you too remember

 

Getting out of the way of the ongoing discussion now