Choosing Key For Irish Tunes - Long

[wes williams]

Once again you seem to ignore the original question ..

Sandy, please go back and read the original first post again. It isn't just the one question you insist it is, but many, including quite a few on why certain concertina recordings aren't the same as the printed sources or the sessions. Jim, Bill, I, and others have tried to discuss this and also how certain instruments favour certain keys, and how this affects the session. You tried to censure this as irrelevant, and so I disagreed with you - without malice or any intended sarcasm - but you now continue to respond to anything I say with what appears to be a very sarcastic tone and slurs about 'erudition', so its pointless for me to make any further response, but let the reader decide.

[JimLucas]

...let the reader decide.

Oh, no! I thought I had escaped "is left as an exercise for the reader" when I left university.

[JohnEverist]

thanks to all for the spirited responses. Its what makes concertina.net a great resource. I guess my question(s) really encompassed both areas: how to make a pragamatic key decision when learning a new tune, as well as trying to gain some understanding of the use of "odd" keys in the context of the tradition. Lots of help in both realms.

 

Learn The Earl's Chair in D (and don't use that gawdawful Bm chord on the first beat, it's a G chord;-).

 

yeah, Sandy, I agree that that Bm chord is atrocious. A transcription given to me by a fiddler had that written in there by some guitar player. It doesn't even sound Irish. But isn't the actual chord an Em? the tune seems to be E Dorian

 

back to lurk mode,

 

John

[JimLucas]

Learn The Earl's Chair in D (and don't use that gawdawful Bm chord on the first beat, it's a G chord;-).

yeah, Sandy, I agree that that Bm chord is atrocious.

So I had to check it out. "Oh, that's what that one is called," I said to myself when I read it from the book.

 

Now I'll disagree. To me G sounds weird, and Bm sounds right! In fact, I think nearly the whole A part is basically in Bm.

 

It doesn't even sound Irish.  But isn't the actual chord an Em?  the tune seems to be E Dorian

Em? E dorian? Is this the same tune I'm looking at? The strong notes through most of the A part are B, F#, and D, which gives it a strong ground of Bm, though resolving to D (the relative major) at the end of the A part. That's something I consider very Irish sounding.

 

To me, a G chord against those strong F#'s sounds intriguing, but not "Irish".

 

(Hmm. Differences of opinion. How unusual! )

[Sandy Winters]

Jim, the first two measures of The Earl's Chair seem to be in Bm *as a whole* and are very often (indeed, usually) accompanied that way in contemporary performances. Those measures can (and in my opinion, more traditionally, *should* :-) be accompanied by 3 beats of G resolving to D at the F# then back to G (3 beats) again to the D (last beat F#). In my *very* humble opinion the relative and related minors are overused in contemporary Irish music performance. A direct result of the guitar and other string instruments establishing themselves in the tradition. For example, Connaughtman's Rambles is virtually always performed with a Bm accompaniment to the second part thru-out, but listen to Noel Hill/Tony McMahon"s version on the Knocknagree album. D's and G's thru-out. (More accurately, I chords and IV chords, since they're in 'flat' keys) Wow, what a great sound!!

 

As for E dorian???? No, I don't think so..

 

Wes--"you now continue to respond to anything I say with what appears to be a very sarcastic tone and slurs about 'erudition'".

 

I've responded once in defense of myself having been publicly accused of misquoting you, a charge I consider serious. Was I perhaps too sarcastic in my original response?? I've admitted as much. But sarcasm in my last response????

 

I can't see anything in the entire post that was in "a very sarcastic tone", and if you take the use of the word 'erudite' as a "slur", I'd say say you need to lighten up a bit. I'm fully aware of your respected position in (and contributions to) the concertina community, especially as a historian. I do consider your posts to be erudite, that is, intelligent *and* educated. That is the truth.

 

SARCASM follows....:-)

I publicly apologize for accusing you of being so well informed. :-)

END of sarcasm

 

See the 'smileys??? They are sincere and well intentioned. (I haven't figured out how to use those 'gawdawful' yellow spots, and have no intention to).

Edited October 21, 2004 by Sandy Winters

[JimLucas]

...the first two measures of The Earl's Chair seem to be in Bm *as a whole* and are very often (indeed, usually) accompanied that way in contemporary performances. Those measures can (and in my opinion, more traditionally,  *should* :-) be accompanied by 3 beats of G resolving to D at the F# then back to G (3 beats) again to the D (last beat F#).

I agree with "can", though not with "should", nor do I think there's anything "more traditional" about your G/D way, though maybe not any less, either. (Well, the folks I first played Irish music with considered backup guitar of any sort an "untraditional" intrusion. They would sooner hear a harmony line than a "wallpaper" of strummed chords behind the bare melody. Over the course of about a decade, many of them changed their tune -- so to speak, -- but that is and has been a separate topic.)

 

The steady Bm sounds more "basic" to me; with that The Earl's Chair reminds me of The Musical Priest, where I love the Bm/A alternation. But really, I'm the sort who would like to do The Earl's Chair several times through, some times heavy on the Bm, some times with your G/D, maybe some times with some other mix. In fact, with your G/D sequence, a bass-chord alternation allows a D bass on the 3rd beat to be nicely ambiguous, suggesting both the G and D chords. (I don't play guitar, but I just tried that on my Crane duet.)

 

In my *very* humble opinion...

C'mon, Sandy. You're no more humble than I am. Or is that more of your sarcasm?

 

...the relative and related minors are overused in contemporary Irish music performance.

I'd say lots of things are "overused", and what you notice may depend on what groups you listen to. Each group can have its own. (Contradance bands often play tunes in "sets" of 2-4 tunes. I remember a contradance partner once commenting on a band, "If they end one more set with an Em jig, I'll scream!" ) Minor chords can be one overuse, but others I've noticed with chords are (1) major I, IV, V chords everywhere, even when the melody screams for something else, and (2) nothing but 6th, 9th, and 13th chords halfway up the neck, and (3) a chord progression that works beautifully for one tune being recycled for another tune in the same key, for which it's totally inappropriate. Of course, these get even worse in sessions with multiple guitarists.

 

The main thing about something that's overused is that it shouldn't be abandoned because of that, but it should be used selectively. I might guess that you agree, though you and I won't always make the same selections.

 

A direct result of the guitar and other string instruments establishing themselves in the tradition.

While those two things may have happened at the same time, I'm not convinced that it's necessarily cause and effect. On the other hand, I don't much care. What is, is.

 

For example, Connaughtman's Rambles is virtually always performed with a Bm accompaniment to the second part thru-out,...

I hadn't noticed that. I'll have to listen carefully to some recordings, and watch the guitars at next week's session. I'm not sure it's as universal as you say. I know I wouldn't be inclined to do it that way. That is an instance where I would consider it to be overdone.

 

...but listen to Noel Hill/Tony McMahon"s version on the Knocknagree album. D's and G's thru-out. Wow, what a great sound!!

Hmm. I don't have that album, and I'm having trouble imagining it? Which chord against the obvious Bm of the 1st beat? And which chord against the sustained E halfway through? While experimenting just now, I came up with the sequence Bm(D), F#m(C#), Bm(, A (A). I wonder how I would continue that.

 

"a very sarcastic tone"

Which is better for that, metal ends, or wooden ends?

 

I haven't figured out how to use those 'gawdawful' yellow spots, and have no intention to

Oh, but they're so easy. Your smileys would work, if you just leave out the stroke for the nose. Helps prevent bloody noses, too.