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Choosing Key For Irish Tunes - Long


JohnEverist

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Hello all.....

 

I know that this is a problematic question, but I'm coming out of 'lurk mode" with a few observations and some questions, and would aprreciate any response. I've been playing a modified 30 key Lachenal C/G instrument for about a year and half or so. I'm entirely self-taught, however I did make a bit of a ways into Bertram Levy's tutor. I live in an area (South Dakota, USA) which has no anglo concertina players (that I know of), but I am lucky enough to have some great Irish music players as friends who are willing to put up with my learning curve as long as I play piano for the local ceilis B) . I have been a gigging musician (with day job) for over 30 yrs playing guitar and piano in classic rock/jazz standard bands, and more recently guitar and banjo in American Old Time tradition, with emphasis on US Midwestern fiddle tunes. I can read enough to follow a lead sheet, or pick out a tune transcription, but I learn primarily by ear.

 

I recently tackled Noel Hill's "The Wise Maid" which effort brings me to the questions. Apparently he is playing in Bb on the recording, and when I first sounded it out I was able to find all the notes on my instrument. I am continually amazed at the vesatility of the C/G instrument (30 key), and felt that with enough practice I could probably play it at a reasonable tempo in that key. But since its more widely played as a D tune (I think), I transposed and learned it there. So how is Noel Hill playing it on the recording? I am assuming D fingering with an Ab/Eb instrument.....anybody know? (BTW The AmazingSlowdowner from ronimusic.com is a remarkable learning tool for those that like to learn from recordings by ear, esp those NH ornaments ..... I am not affiliated)

 

The locals play "The Earl's Chair" so I put in some time on that one as well. They play it in D and I learned it off a transcription from the ABC tunefinder, with help from my mates at the different parts. I am particularly fond of Mary MacNamara's playing and try to reference her settings if I am learning a tune she has recorded comercially. She plays that tune in C. Is that tradition in her part of Clare?

 

I also love Mrs. Crotty and John Kelly, Sr., and find their settings pretty accessible. But again, their key choices are pretty different from the settings you find in the abc's or if our local session just happens to play one they play . And then there's Kitty Hayes with all those tunes in F. I guess its just a concertina "situation" what with the early 2-row instruments establishing the traditional keys for some tunes in some areas, and the availability of great instruments in keys and tunings other than C/G and A=440.

 

So how does anyone else decide which key when learning a tune? For me, if its a tune that my local group already plays I will learn it in their key. If its for my edification, I either use the key that the recording I am using is in, or I may decide to use the fingering that (I think) the artist is using and transposing for my instrument. I was able to take a Irish piano class from Felix Dolan this past summer, and he was kind enough to accompany me while I played some of my concertina tunes. He rolled his eyes at some of my key choices ;)

 

Thanks for any and all feedback. I'm hoping someday for a real anglo lesson from an accomplished player, but am not looking forward to dealing with all the bad habits I am surely teaching myself.

 

Happy Squeezing!

 

John

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I recently tackled Noel Hill's "The Wise Maid" which effort brings me to the questions. Apparently he is playing in Bb on the recording, and when I first sounded it out I was able to find all the notes on my instrument. I am continually amazed at the vesatility of the C/G instrument (30 key), and felt that with enough practice I could probably play it at a reasonable tempo in that key. But since its more widely played as a D tune (I think), I transposed and learned it there. So how is Noel Hill playing it on the recording? I am assuming D fingering with an Ab/Eb instrument.....anybody know?

That is my impression, yes.

 

The locals play "The Earl's Chair" so I put in some time on that one as well. They play it in D and I learned it off a transcription from the ABC tunefinder, with help from my mates at the different parts. I am particularly fond of Mary MacNamara's playing and try to reference her settings if I am learning a tune she has recorded comercially. She plays that tune in C. Is that tradition in her part of Clare?

 

Again, I've gotten the impression that many tunes in East Clare are in C and F rather than D and G.

 

 

So how does anyone else decide which key when learning a tune? For me, if its a tune that my local group already plays I will learn it in their key. If its for my edification, I either use the key that the recording I am using is in, or I may decide to use the fingering that (I think) the artist is using and transposing for my instrument.

 

That's pretty much what I do. I also check multiple sources (printed, recorded, living informants) to see what key(s) is/are common.

 

Ken

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I think many of the older traditional players played tunes in keys that they found comfortable on their instrument, whatever key it was in. If they started playing an instrument in a different key (e.g., Noel's in Ab/Eb), they didn't change the fingering; they kept the fingering and let the key change. That was fine, because they often played either alone or with just one or two friends who would adjust to their key. Sometimes they have a second instrument in a different key, one they like less, but which allows them to play in the "crowd" key without changing fingering.

 

But there's a modern "session" mentality (this has been discussed/debated a few times here on Concertina.net) which requires that everybody play everything in keys which are accessible without half-holing on a D whistle. I think that concept largely dominates the keys in which tunes are transcribed for the various session-oriented tune resources on the internet.

 

When I'm playing with others in sessions, I'll play in their keys. On the whistle, that generally means the D whistle. But when I'm busking alone on the street, I most often use my C whistle, because I like its sound, and I've also used the C whistle when recording. That would go well with a Bb/F anglo, playing tunes with "standard" fingerings.

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Yeah having everything in D, G and A is really just sort of modern etiquette. I think it has less to do with Whistles (lets face it, do you know any serious whistle players who don't have some whistles in C and Eb and some other keys as well) and more to do with Fiddles and perhaps Flutes (where it is a bit pricey to have a collection of flutes for every key).

 

Back in the days when most of the playing was solo different people played in whatever keys were suitable to their instruments; Bb I think was common on the pipes, C natural on the Melodeon playing in Connemara.

 

I think Concertinas must have picked up the pre-existing popular keys of West Clare and the other areas that they were played since C didn't seem to be that common of a key for older concertina recordings.

 

One final thought is that alot of performers, on their solo albums will often choose keys that they believe suits the tune or a particular instrument that they think the tune will sound good on. It makes it hard for those of us who play things mostly in Session Standard keys but hey, thats all part of the fun.

 

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Bill

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since C didn't seem to be that common of a key for older concertina recordings.

I know this is about Irish music and William Kimber was an English Morris musician but he played almost the whole time in C (on anglo) usually on his own.

 

It is my belief that tunes got stuck in the D / G jelly mold with the cheapness and therefore popularity of Hohner Pokerwork melodeons at the beginning of the "folk revival" in the early to mid 1950s.

 

edited to fix spelling :-)

Edited by Peter Brook
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If your intent is to play relatively 'common' session tunes (such as The Wise Maid and The Earl's Chair) with other mutually inclined players of different instruments you'll have to learn those tunes in there 'common' key. To find out what key that may be don't depend on recordings. Go to the historical literature, O'Neill's, Ryan's Mammoth (Cole's), Roche, Breathnach, etc. Also consult the larger databases such as TheSession.com and JC's Tunefinder. You'll find dozens, if not hundreds, of versions of the common tunes in many keys, but it would be safe to assume that the keys most often cited would be the most usually accepted as the 'standard' key.

 

Playing tunes in 'non-standard' keys is often a good exercise and can give a tune an entirely different 'feel', but doing so at a session will most likely leave you performing as a soloist.

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...lets face it, do you know any serious whistle players who don't have some whistles in C and Eb and some other keys as well...

Well, I've met several who think they're serious, some of whom even think it's their divine mission to "educate" the rest of us that D and G have always been the only proper keys for Irish music. (At least one has even denied the existence of traditional fiddle tunes in A. But I digress.)

 

...more to do with Fiddles and perhaps Flutes (where it is a bit pricey to have a collection of flutes for every key)...

Flutes, perhaps, though I think they're pricier (in real-wage terms) today than at any time since they first became popular for Irish music. But I've known more than one traditional flutist with flutes in F, Eb, or G, as well as D.

 

Fiddles, no. There are lots of fiddle tunes in keys of Am, C, Gm, Bb, Dm, F, and especially A. Fiddles are the most versatile of the traditional instruments, when it comes to playing in different keys.

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Playing tunes in 'non-standard' keys ... can give a tune an entirely different 'feel', but doing so at a session will most likely leave you performing as a soloist.

Which is something that some sessions appreciate, but others will hang you for. :o

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It is my belief that tunes got stuck in the D / G jelly mold with the cheapness and therefore popularity of Hohner Pokerwork melodeons at the beginning of the "folk revival" in the early to mid 1950s.

That doesn't match my own experience, unless there was a significant decline in D/G's over 20 years. In the '70's, among Morris musicians in the US D/G melodeons were highly prized, but difficult to obtain, sometimes selling for double the price of a comparable G/C. Since many of these folks had close ties to people in England, I'm sure they would have brought lots of D/G's back from there if they were plentiful, but that didn't happen. It was said at the time that Hohner normally made only G/C and C/F, and D/G had to be specially ordered.

 

Back then, G was a very common key for Morris (in America), and tunes in other keys (e.g., in the Bacon book) were often transposed to G for mass dances, since both D/G and G/C melodeons (C/G anglos, too) could play in that key. (Fiddlers and English concertinas didn't care, of course. :))

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...lets face it, do you know any serious whistle players who don't have some whistles in C and Eb and some other keys as well...

Well, I've met several who think they're serious, some of whom even think it's their divine mission to "educate" the rest of us that D and G have always been the only proper keys for Irish music. (At least one has even denied the existence of traditional fiddle tunes in A. But I digress.)

 

Well those whistle players don't know all that much. Certainly D and G were popular among fiddle players but not all of Trad is fiddle music after all.

 

...more to do with Fiddles and perhaps Flutes (where it is a bit pricey to have a collection of flutes for every key)...

Flutes, perhaps, though I think they're pricier (in real-wage terms) today than at any time since they first became popular for Irish music. But I've known more than one traditional flutist with flutes in F, Eb, or G, as well as D.

 

Fiddles, no. There are lots of fiddle tunes in keys of Am, C, Gm, Bb, Dm, F, and especially A. Fiddles are the most versatile of the traditional instruments, when it comes to playing in different keys.

 

Yes you are right (Though I think when were saying D and G, we were including all their modes, so we don't need to worry too much about the minor keys for the purpose of this discussion). I know little about fiddle playing other than the sound I make when I try to pull a bow across the strings is banned by the Geneva Convention as being a form of torture to POWs. That being said, I was under the impression (perhaps false) that many fiddle players perfer playing in one position and that D and G and their modes are the keys most easily played from that position... but again I could be wrong ;)

 

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Bill

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I know this is about Irish music and William Kimber was an English Morris musician but he played almost the whole time in C (on anglo) usually on his own.

 

It is my belief that tunes got stuck in the D / G jelly mold with the cheapness and therefore popularity of Hohner Pokerwork melodeons at the beginning of the "folk revival" in the early to mid 1950s.

Well I don't know about Morris music, but the Pokerwork in a D/G or C/G tuning had nothing to do with the Irish embracing D, G and A. By the mid 1950s the debate about proper accordion tunings was between the B/C, C#/D and the D/C#. Pretty much all the great Irish Box players who emerged in that Period (Paddy O'Brien (the original, not the one still with us), Joe Derrane, Joe Cooley, Sonny Brogan and others), played one of the above those box tunings. Further all of them were choosen for their advantages in playing in D, G and A.

 

If I would have to make a guess, I would bet it came down to the emergence of Celi bands in the 1920s and 30s. Certainly Bands had to agree upon common keys for tunes.

 

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Bill

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It is my belief that tunes got stuck in the D / G jelly mold with the cheapness and therefore popularity of Hohner Pokerwork melodeons at the beginning of the "folk revival" in the early to mid 1950s.

That doesn't match my own experience, unless there was a significant decline in D/G's over 20 years.

D/G Melodeons were a new idea after the revival started, and quite rare - see the interview with Brian Hayden on this site. I don't remember seeing an old German type two row with anything but a semitone between rows, so that probably explains why Ireland went that way - like the German made "anglo" concertinas, you could pick them up cheaply, and they were the only ones freely available.

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It is my belief that tunes got stuck in the D / G jelly mold with the cheapness and therefore popularity of Hohner Pokerwork melodeons at the beginning of the "folk revival" in the early to mid 1950s.

That doesn't match my own experience, unless there was a significant decline in D/G's over 20 years.

D/G Melodeons were a new idea after the revival started, and quite rare - see the interview with Brian Hayden on this site. I don't remember seeing an old German type two row with anything but a semitone between rows, so that probably explains why Ireland went that way - like the German made "anglo" concertinas, you could pick them up cheaply, and they were the only ones freely available.

I don't know about the D/G tuning specifically, but semitone tuning is pretty much unique to post war Irish Music. According to Billy McComiskey (who ought to know a heck of alot more about Irish Accordion than any of us) Paolo Soprani started sending half step tunned boxes to Ireland during WWII when their market was significantly curtailed by the fact that they were at war with many of the countries they exported to. How they managed to get the boxes to Ireland is beyond me, but I suppose since Musical instruments would not be considered war contraband it would be possible to ship them to and from a neutral country.

 

--

 

Bill

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Returning to the original thread. How do you decide keys of tunes in the Irish tradition??

 

If you open O'Neill's original publication 'Music of Ireland, 1850 tunes' published in 1903 (I think?? Jim???) you'll find that most of the reels, jigs and hornpipes, by a large percentage, are in G, D or their related and/or relative minors.

 

This is long before the popularity of melodeons or concertinas in Irish music. For that matter, in O'Neill's book "Irish Minstrels and Musicians" published in the 1920's, he only devotes no more than 2 or 3 pages to the accordion and does not mention the concertina at all.

 

The discussion of various free reed instruments and their many different key systems is certainly interesting but has little to do with the determination and historical acceptance of common keys for common tunes.

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You should pick the best key for the finger-layout your concertina - be it C/G or G/D. If people want to join in - thats fair enough.

Melodion players who have not tried it, refuse to admit that D/G boxes CAN play in C or A - miss it out or play another note if it isn't there!!.

If you are following other people, C/G players don't crib, they just get on with it in F through to A with no complaints.

What is it about flute and melodion players who maintain they cannot transpose - get some scales learnt.

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Returning to the original thread. How do you decide keys of tunes in the Irish tradition??

You don't - they can vary according to the context and location of the session, and who starts the tune. Example: The Golden Castle, a tune by Junior Crehan, is normally played in G modal-minor in sessions, so a concertina player needs a Bb outside of the normal two rows. But then Kitty Hayes, who played with Junior Crehan, plays it in A modal-minor, which only needs the basic two rows. Which is correct? I've been to sessions where C was the dominant key, and others where F and Bb were heavily used. But if you can't play the tune in the key that's been chosen, you just stop and enjoy someone else's playing - or learn to play more by ear than dots!

 

If you open O'Neill's original publication 'Music of Ireland, 1850 tunes' published in 1903 (I think?? Jim???) you'll find that most of the reels, jigs and hornpipes, by a large percentage, are in G, D or their related and/or relative minors.

The keys of the music notation only have a little bearing on what you'll find them dished up in. They are often written just to fit neatly on the stave.

This is long before the popularity of melodeons or concertinas in Irish music. For that matter, in O'Neill's book "Irish Minstrels and Musicians" published in the 1920's, he only devotes no more than 2 or 3 pages to the accordion and does not mention the concertina at all.

I could argue against all that quite easily, but here is not the place. Suffice to say that O'Neill's work only represents the repertoire of emigrant musicians in the Chicago area long ago - the question is about keys today.

The discussion of various free reed instruments and their many different key systems is certainly interesting but has little to do with the determination and historical acceptance of common keys for common tunes.

Yes, it may seem like we are off in a different direction, but it does have bearing - the keys used depend on the capability of the instrument playing them. So what we are trying to discuss is why certain instruments - if leading the session - will pick certain keys.

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...I think when were saying D and G, we were including all their modes...

I wasn't. A lot of the key-preference on the fiddle has to do with use of open strings. The open strings are G, D, A, and E. The open E string, being so high and having no open strings above it, is generally used as a strong enhancement in other keys, rather than as a foundation. So the most "natural" fiddle keys seem to be D, A, and G.

 

Many of the modes of a given key signature don't make good use of the open strings, so extending the preference via that musical concept doesn't necessarily fit with using the instrument to best advantage. Many Irish tunes use "minor" modes -- Æolian and Dorian -- which make heavy use of the 7th note of their scale and the VII chord (not to be confused with the 7th chord). In the keys of Am, Em, and Bm, this uses the open G, D, and A strings, respectively. Note that Am is included there, though C major isn't. Meanwhile, the key of F#m -- the relative minor of A -- is rarely used. Because the open A string is the 3rd of its scale -- not the tonic, 4th, or 5th -- and would therefor put the open-string emphasis on the "wrong" notes? That's a speculation on my part.

 

I was under the impression that many fiddle players perfer playing in one position and that D and G and their modes are the keys most easily played from that position... but again I could be wrong ;)

Remaining in "first" position is indeed a strong motivation, but a related one is a desire to keep the same finger positions from string to string. Among the keys where no fingers shift between the first and second parts of the major scale include D, A (in each of 2 octaves), G (in each of 2 octaves), and C. The fingering for the main octave of D is identical with A, just by shifting strings. The same is true with C vs. G. It's also true for E-dorian, but not quite with E-æolian (the standard "relative minor"), which may be why there are so many "E minor" Irish tunes with 2 sharps instead of one. The reverse is true for D: D-dorian requires a finger shift, while D-æolian doesn't, and in my experience there are more tunes in D with one flat than with no flats or sharps.

 

There's some serious speculation in the above, but my main point is that "preferred" keys on a fiddle -- just as on an anglo -- should be more strongly influenced by the mechanics of the instrument than by musical considerations which may not have counterparts in the actual playing of the instrument.

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You should pick the best key for the finger-layout your concertina - be it C/G or G/D. If people want to join in - thats fair enough.

Melodion players who have not tried it, refuse to admit that D/G boxes CAN play in C or A - miss it out or play another note if it isn't there!!.

If you are following other people, C/G players don't crib, they just get on with it in F through to A with no complaints.

What is it about flute and melodion players who maintain they cannot transpose - get some scales learnt.

Geoff, I don't think I can agree with your particular position; at least if you are planning on playing in a local session. It all depends on the ettiquite of the session of course, but in general you should learn your tunes in relatively common keys whenever possible. When learning a tune in a key that is quite foreign to a session you might find that not only are you the only one who knows it in that key, but that other people will have a terrible time learning to play it in that key. Just because a simple flute can theoretically be played in any key doesn't mean it is practical to play in the keys that are too far from D.

 

Regarding melodeon players, well we don't get too many of them at Irish Sessions here; B/C accordion rules around here. That said among the major keys C is pretty easy, G and D are the essential ones, A is starting to be a challenge and anything beyond A is for masochists and virtuosos. Yeah Eb is possible on a B/C accordion but unless they have a C/C# box I don't know too many B/C players who would be eager to play in Eb; I suspect the same would be true of flute players. Even if a player could play in Eb, it is likely they would not be able to do much in the way of ornamentation.

 

Ultimately a number of instruments in ITM have evolved to play in the more or less standard keys of Irish Music (Button Accordions, alot of the tunings for stringed instruments, d whistles) or the they were suited to play in the standard keys from the start (Fiddle and Flute spring to mind). Now I don't think C or A is much of a stretch for any of them (assuming you are not playing in a session tuned up a half step) but you need to be careful.

 

--

Bill

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