LeadFingersErnie Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I have encountered a rather tatty old English 'tina made by Cramer & Co. I have never heard of this make until today. Can anybody throw any light upon it please? As a restorer, I am particularly interested in the works. I am accustomed to Wheatstone and Lachenal, are there any terrors within thos old beastie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Cramer & Co. were not concertina makers, though they did manufacture pianos and sold many kinds of musical instruments. The only concertina badged Cramer that I recall seeing was a riveted-reed instrument made by C. Wheatstone & Co. That's as much as I can say without an address or (better still) photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Maybe this is the Cramer that Chris Algar has on eBay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Maybe this is the Cramer that Chris Algar has on eBay? Namely, http://www.ebay.com/itm/251383804807 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeadFingersErnie Posted November 21, 2013 Author Share Posted November 21, 2013 As Stephen Chambers said below, I have confirmed with other sources that Cramer was a musical instrument dealer who badged both Wheatstone and Lachenal concertinas, mid-19th Century. The box is on eBay, and the seller is in Cheshire, Could well be Chris Algar being anonymous! As a restoration project it might be interesting, but only to keep as another ancient concertina in my collection. If I sold it after "resurrection", I might get my money back but can;t see it being worth a fortune; - after all, it isn't a Jeffries or an Aeola! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wild Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 It looks like Chris has moved. he was mentioning that possibility earlier. Business seller information Barleycorn Christopher Algar 60 Liverpool Road West Church Lawton Cheshire ST7 3DF United Kingdom Phone:01270|879958 Fax:(01782) 851449 Email:barleycorn@concertina.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Having now seen it, and its description, on eBay, I can add that it appears to be an inexpensive Wheatstone riveted-reed model. Cramer & Co. were at 210, Regent Street (which is now Liberty & Co.'s address, on the opposite side of Regent Street to Conduit Street, where Wheatstone's shop was for many years) between 1872-95. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Cramer & Co. were at 210, Regent Street (which is now Liberty & Co.'s address, on the opposite side of Regent Street to Conduit Street, where Wheatstone's shop was for many years) between 1872-95. But the label is for 201 Regent Street. The last directory reference I have for 201 is 1888. Cramer seem to have had a whole range of premises in this area - the Post Office Trade directory for 1888 lists 199,201,207 & 209. The GPO renumbered London streets c.1890. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inventor Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 (edited) cocoa111 on eBay is Chris Algar. I thought that this had been established long ago. Inventor. Edited December 8, 2013 by inventor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeadFingersErnie Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 Thank you Inventor. Being relatively new to this site, I did not know Chris Algar's nom-de-plume! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 (edited) As a matter of interest Ernie, did you receive the PDF I sent you (never sure they get where they are supposed to be going) Chris Edited December 9, 2013 by chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Cramer & Co. were at 210, Regent Street (which is now Liberty & Co.'s address, on the opposite side of Regent Street to Conduit Street, where Wheatstone's shop was for many years) between 1872-95. But the label is for 201 Regent Street. The last directory reference I have for 201 is 1888. Cramer seem to have had a whole range of premises in this area - the Post Office Trade directory for 1888 lists 199,201,207 & 209. The GPO renumbered London streets c.1890. So it is Wes! I'd innocently accepted Chris Algar's description that it had 'a metal,plaque which says "J.B.Cramer and Co, 210 Regent Street, London" ' - but (now I've put my glasses on) the label does indeed appear to say 201 Regent Street instead, an address the firm used, under various names, from 1824 onwards, though the company name was only J. B. Cramer & Co. between 1872 and 1895. So it looks like the instrument in question was probably made between 1872 and 1888, whilst the address is still in immediate proximity to Wheatstone's in Conduit Street... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry McGee Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Hmmm. The New Langwill Index (the flute bible) tells us: Cramer, J.B., Woodwind Instruments, flourished London mid 19th c to post 1950. Piano makers, musical instrument dealers, music publishers. 1824 established as "Cramer, Addison & Beale", being a partnership between the composer and pianist Johann Baptist Cramer (born Mannheim 24 February 1771, died London 16 April 1858), Robert Addison and T. F. Beale; 1844 As "Cramer, Beale & Co" or Cramer, Beale & Chappell; 1931 bought Metzler & Co. Not to be confused with the woodwind instrument maker John Cramer. I have a flute in my research collection bearing the stamp "Cramer, Addison & Beale" - a "T. Lindsay Improved". Lindsay was a flute maker and writer on the flute. The number 201 appears on my flute, as well as others I've heard about. No address though. More about that later.... Addresses and associations given are: 1824-44 Cramer, Addison & Beale, 210 Regent st 1844-61 Cramer, Beale & Chappell, ditto 1861-64 Cramer, Beale & Wood, ditto 1863-72 Cramer & Co, ditto 1872-93 J.B. Cramer & Co, ditto. Note 210, not 201. Yet if you Google for "Regent St London Cramer" you get a range from 201 through 207, 209 to 210. And there's that strange 201 on my T. Lindsay's Improved, and others. Hmmm. Langwill largely worked from the trade directories of the time, so perhaps 210 was their formal address. Terry Edited January 12, 2014 by Terry McGee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dipper Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 The Concertina connection here is via Joseph Scates, the ex-Wheatstone craftsman. From 1851 he operated in Dublin as a professor of music, and from 1853 as a designer, patentee and maker of concertinas at 26 or 27 College Green Dublin, very near to the Parnormo and William Gibson string instrument makers. He moved to Westmorland street and finally sold the operation to Cramer&Co in 1865 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hmmm. The New Langwill Index (the flute bible) tells us ... Terry, I don't have the luxury of the "New Langwill" but I've long relied on the old "Langwill" as published by Lyndesay himself, my own researches, and an even scarcer publication; "Victorian Music Publishers - An Annotated List" (Harmonie Park Press, Michigan, 1990) by John A. Parkinson, who had the advantage of working in the Music Room of the British Library. The latter publication was my most useful source in this context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry McGee Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I imagine there aren't that many crossovers between concertina and flute, but Cramer was a name I knew well, having a flute with his name on it. Wheatstone of course. Pratten played the concertina as well as designing his Perfected flute. Speaking of the BL, I had a quick look on Copac and got 2867 hits on the keyword "concertina": http://copac.ac.uk/search?&keyword=concertina Add cramer and that narrows down to three: Airs carefully selected and arranged for the Concertina and Pianoforte by R. Blagrove. / [byBlagrove, Richard Manning, -1895.] Author Blagrove, Richard Manning, -1895. Published London : Cramer & Co, [1865] Cramer's Instruction Book for the German concertina, etc. / [by Cramer and Co.] Author Cramer and Co. Published London, [1873] Instruction book for the study of the concertina : comprising elementary & progressive exercises, by Richard Blagrove. / [by [blagrove, Richard].] Author [blagrove, Richard]. Published London : Cramer, Wood & Co. 201, Regent Street. Cramer, Wood & Co's. Pianoforte Gallery, 209, Regent Street., [1864?]. Note again the 201 address, with a mention of their pianoforte gallery at 209. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) I imagine there aren't that many crossovers between concertina and flute, but Cramer was a name I knew well, having a flute with his name on it. Wheatstone of course. Pratten played the concertina as well as designing his Perfected flute. In the "flute and concertina makers" category Keith Prowse, Simpson and (even!) Rudall & Rose spring immediately to mind and (according to Andrew Fairley) Ribas as a player. Of course Pratten was linked to Regondi via his wife, the renowned Victorian guitarist Madame Sidney Pratten (née Catharina Josepha Pelzer) who had also been a child prodigy on the instrument. But, from a practical point of view, I think the design of the "R.S.Pratten's Perfected" flutes owes more to the work of Siccama and Hudson - the latter modifying Siccama's 1842 design (which itself owed much in its design to Boehm's conical-bore 1832-model) to suit Pratten's needs better. Speaking of the BL, I had a quick look on Copac and got 2867 hits on the keyword "concertina": http://copac.ac.uk/search?&keyword=concertina I did a similar search on their old online catalogue, years ago, and printed all the results that came up at the time - though I can't say that I counted them... Instruction book for the study of the concertina : comprising elementary & progressive exercises, by Richard Blagrove. / [by [blagrove, Richard].] Author [blagrove, Richard]. PublishedLondon : Cramer, Wood & Co. 201, Regent Street. Cramer, Wood & Co's. Pianoforte Gallery, 209, Regent Street., [1864?]. The Cramer firm got through quite a plethora of addresses and names in the course of its long existence, sometimes simultaneously - Parkinson gives 1871-72 for that particular combination. Note again the 201 address, with a mention of their pianoforte gallery at 209. 201, Regent Street (on the corner of Conduit Street) was the original address of Cramer, Addison & Beale from the outset, in 1824. The 209 and 210, Regent Street addresses first appeared in 1872, by which time the firm became J. B. Cramer & Co., adding Ltd. to the name in 1895. Edited January 14, 2014 by Stephen Chambers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.