D D'Esposito Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 Will have to check again to make sure I did not transcribe the :C incorrectly. Again I regret that my musical abilities are limited. I do know that both concertinas play, but whether they are on key or not is a mystery to me. I believe I need to locate an individual in my area who may be able to shed some light on the quality of sound/tuning and restoration cost/value on each. Hi Daniel I've sent you a PM message with some further thoughts from Neil Wayne on these instruments Thank you I have recently communicated with Neil via email.-Damian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D D'Esposito Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 Here is the button layout for the 1903 concertina the left side the right side F H F H F H F :F C ;F C ;F C ;F ;D A ;D A ;D A ;D E ;A E ;A E ;A E ;C G ;C G ;C G ;C D ;G D ;G D ;G D I double checked the key pattern on the 1900 concertina ,and found that it was not a mistake.There is one :c note in that layout.Thank you again for all the responses I'm still not clear as to whether you're getting these note names from the sounds made, or simply reading them from the reed "frames". If the latter, it's quite possible that a reed that's marked C# (:C) has actually been tuned to a C natural pitch. Your location says you're in "ny". If that's New York City, how about one of our members in the area or with knowledgeable friends in The City arrange for a meeting to evaluate this oddity/treasure "in person"? The notes themselves are stamped on each reed. We are about an hour north of NY city and at this point would need time to consider your proposal.-Damian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) The notes themselves are stamped on each reed. Then it's possible -- uncommon, but not unheard of even with our own "normal" concertinas -- that a reed or reeds are tuned to notes other than what's marked on them. And that would make much more sense than having an extra (and out of place) C# and its corresponding C natural completely missing. Your location says you're in "ny". If that's New York City, how about one of our members in the area or with knowledgeable friends in The City arrange for a meeting to evaluate this oddity/treasure "in person"? We are about an hour north of NY city and at this point would need time to consider your proposal. Well, my "proposal" is simply that somebody knowledgeable evaluate your instruments, not from a price standpoint, but from a mechanical and musical standpoint. If I were still living in the area (I'm now an ocean away), I would simply offer to hop in my car and come take a look, with no charge and no obligation. Just because I'm curious. And there are many with the same attitude here on concertina.net. Also, if you name your town (I guess your "ny" means NY State), we might well find someone useful/helpful who lives closer to you than NYC. Good luck. Edited July 9, 2013 by JimLucas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ransom Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 The notes themselves are stamped on each reed. Then it's possible -- uncommon, but not unheard of even with our own "normal" concertinas -- that a reed or reeds are tuned to notes other than what's marked on them. And that would make much more sense than having an extra (and out of place) C# and its corresponding C natural completely missing. Why is it more sensible to mark it wrong than to tune it out of the pattern? I just take it as suggesting that the owner wished to play it in sharp keys, and wanted a low C# instead of C natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 The notes themselves are stamped on each reed. Then it's possible -- uncommon, but not unheard of even with our own "normal" concertinas -- that a reed or reeds are tuned to notes other than what's marked on them. And that would make much more sense than having an extra (and out of place) C# and its corresponding C natural completely missing. Why is it more sensible to mark it wrong than to tune it out of the pattern? I just take it as suggesting that the owner wished to play it in sharp keys, and wanted a low C# instead of C natural. But the instrument already has that C#, in pattern, in the other hand. Do you really think it would make sense to anyone with musical intentions to have all notes completely available in all octaves, except one note completely missing from one and only one octave, and that not even at the limit of the instrument's range (a fourth above the low G, and needed for the G scale, among others)? On the other hand, if the reeds for C# and C both have the same dimensions, one of the C reeds could have been mistakenly stamped with the extra ":" and a decision made to use it for C natural anyway, rather than waste it. After all, the reeds in our English-engineered concertinas come in only a few standard sizes, each of which is used and tuned for many individual pitches, not a separate size of reed for each musical pitch over 3½ octaves (the range of a standard treble English, and apparently of these two instruments, as well). A question worth asking is whether the second instrument also has that same anomalous placement of a reed marked ":C". I'm also wondering what light Neil Wayne can shed on this puzzle. Has he seen one or more of these before? Or other instruments of the same construction or place of origin, but different keyboard layout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wild Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 In German notation, 'B' refers to b-flat and 'H' is b-natural. thank you for enlightening me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 In German notation, 'B' refers to b-flat and 'H' is b-natural. thank you for enlightening me. FWIW, also in the Scandinavian countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ransom Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 But the instrument already has that C#, in pattern, in the other hand. Do you really think it would make sense to anyone with musical intentions to have all notes completely available in all octaves, except one note completely missing from one and only one octave, and that not even at the limit of the instrument's range (a fourth above the low G, and needed for the G scale, among others)?I was speaking under the assumption that the C# on the other hand might be an octave up. The funny one is in the bottom corner, after all. But now that you mention it, yeah, I'm not sure how this one would be that much lower in this layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D D'Esposito Posted July 10, 2013 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 The notes themselves are stamped on each reed. Then it's possible -- uncommon, but not unheard of even with our own "normal" concertinas -- that a reed or reeds are tuned to notes other than what's marked on them. And that would make much more sense than having an extra (and out of place) C# and its corresponding C natural completely missing. Your location says you're in "ny". If that's New York City, how about one of our members in the area or with knowledgeable friends in The City arrange for a meeting to evaluate this oddity/treasure "in person"? We are about an hour north of NY city and at this point would need time to consider your proposal. Well, my "proposal" is simply that somebody knowledgeable evaluate your instruments, not from a price standpoint, but from a mechanical and musical standpoint. If I were still living in the area (I'm now an ocean away), I would simply offer to hop in my car and come take a look, with no charge and no obligation. Just because I'm curious. And there are many with the same attitude here on concertina.net. Also, if you name your town (I guess your "ny" means NY State), we might well find someone useful/helpful who lives closer to you than NYC. Good luck. The notes themselves are stamped on each reed. Then it's possible -- uncommon, but not unheard of even with our own "normal" concertinas -- that a reed or reeds are tuned to notes other than what's marked on them. And that would make much more sense than having an extra (and out of place) C# and its corresponding C natural completely missing. Your location says you're in "ny". If that's New York City, how about one of our members in the area or with knowledgeable friends in The City arrange for a meeting to evaluate this oddity/treasure "in person"? We are about an hour north of NY city and at this point would need time to consider your proposal. Well, my "proposal" is simply that somebody knowledgeable evaluate your instruments, not from a price standpoint, but from a mechanical and musical standpoint. If I were still living in the area (I'm now an ocean away), I would simply offer to hop in my car and come take a look, with no charge and no obligation. Just because I'm curious. And there are many with the same attitude here on concertina.net. Also, if you name your town (I guess your "ny" means NY State), we might well find someone useful/helpful who lives closer to you than NYC. Good luck. Jim, I understood your "proposal" clearly. At this point we are researching these instruments. I do not choose to post my actual address, but thank you for the suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D D'Esposito Posted July 10, 2013 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 Hi, I am adding a few more pictures due to the inquiries I have received over the last few days. Again I want to thank you all for your responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D D'Esposito Posted July 10, 2013 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 More Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Hi, I am adding a few more pictures due to the inquiries I have received over the last few days. Again I want to thank you all for your responses. Thanks for the extra pictures Damien. There's quite a lot of information about how the free reed instrument family spread from initial inventions (first quarter of the 19th century) in Vienna westwards, but almost zero about its eastward spread. We do know that the concertina (of the type we normally discuss here) was popular in Russia fairly early on, and tutors for it were published there. But around 1900 we were still in the Austro-Hungarian Empire period, so there may be some connection there. Fascinating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D D'Esposito Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 It has been quite awhile since our original inquiry concerning these concertinas. Thanks to everyone who provided feedback. We are following up to say we have placed the concertina dated 1900 on ebay if anyone is interested.--Thankshttp://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=181264251014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieppe Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 By the way. "H" is B-natural, in German musical alphabet. Just search for "H in german music" and you'll get a lot of hits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_cryptogram#German Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D D'Esposito Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 1903 instrument now on ebay if anyone is interested. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=181388340282 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Found this on ebay today. Nils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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