Victorian/edwardian Concertina Maker - Martha Payne

[LorraineKaren]

Dear Concertina.net/Concertina History Forum

My husband's ancestors Alice Payne and Martha Payne were musical instrument makers, in particular Martha Payne was a concertina maker.

Please do you know at what concertina manufacturer Martha may have worked at and what the conditions would have been like for her?

Alice and Martha's father James Payne was a carpenter - did male carpenters teach their female family members to make musical instruments to help with the family income?

Thank you

Peter and Lorraine Courtenay

1881 CENSUS ALICE PAYNE

MUSICAL INSTRUMENT MAKER

Living at 5 Yardley Street

Father James Payne is a carpenter

Sister Martha Payne is also a musical instrument maker

Name: Alice Payne Age: 19 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: James Payne Mother's Name: Priscilla Payne Gender: Female Where born: Clerkenwell Civil parish: Clerkenwell County/Island: London Country: England Street Address: 5 Yardley St Occupation: Musical Instrument Maker Registration district: Holborn Sub-registration district: Amwell ED, institution, or vessel: 7a Piece: 350 Folio: 106 Page Number: 12 Household Members: Name Age James Payne 56 Priscilla Payne 49 Martha Payne 22 Alice Payne 19 Jessie Payne 4

1881 CENSUS MARTHA PAYNE

MUSICAL INSTRUMENT MAKER

Living at 5 Yardley Street

Father James Payne is a carpenter

Sister Alice Payne is also a musical instrument maker

Name: Martha Payne Age: 22 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: James Payne Mother's Name: Priscilla Payne Gender: Female Where born: Clerkenwell Civil parish: Clerkenwell County/Island: London Country: England Street Address: 5 Yardley St Occupation: Musical Instrument Maker Registration district: Holborn Sub-registration district: Amwell ED, institution, or vessel: 7a Piece: 350 Folio: 106 Page Number: 12 Household Members: Name Age James Payne 56 Priscilla Payne 49 Martha Payne 22 Alice Payne 19 Jessie Payne 4

1891 CENSUS MARTHA PAYNE

CONCERTINA MAKER

Living at 85 Myddleton Road

Father James Payne is a carpenter

Name: Martha Payne Age: 31 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: James Payne Mother's Name: Pricella Payne Gender: Female Where born: Clerkenwell Civil parish: Hornsey Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Town: Hornsey County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Registration district: Edmonton Sub-registration district: Hornsey ED, institution, or vessel: 5 Piece: 1060 Folio: 15 Page Number: 21 Household Members: Name Age James Payne 66 Pricella Payne 59 Pricella Payne 33 Martha Payne 31 Jessie Payne 14 Fanny Biddleford 15
1901 CENSUS MARTHA PAYNE

CONCERTINA MAKER

Living at 61 Russell Road

Father James Payne is living on own means

Name: Martha Payne Age: 42 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: James Payne Mother's Name: Pricilla Payne Gender: Female Where born: Clerkenwell, London, England Civil parish: Southgate Ecclesiastical parish: Bowes St Michael County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Registration district: Edmonton Sub-registration district: Edmonton ED, institution, or vessel: 39 Household schedule number: 247 Piece: 1267 Folio: 130 Page Number: 35 Household Members: Name Age James Payne 76 Pricilla Payne 69 Martha Payne 42 Jessie Payne 24
1911 CENSUS MARTHA PAYNE

CONCERTINA MAKER

Living at 61 Russell Road

Martha is a bellows maker for a concertina manufacturer
Name: Martha Payne Age in 1911: 52 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859 Relation to Head: Daughter Gender: Female Birth Place: Clerkenwell, London, England Civil parish: Southgate County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street Address: 61 Russell Road, Bowes Park Marital Status: Single Occupation: Bellows Maker Registration district: Edmonton Registration District Number: 132 Sub-registration district: Edmonton ED, institution, or vessel: 49 Household schedule number: 107 Piece: 7399 Household Members: Name Age Prescilla Payne 79 Martha Payne 52 Jessie Payne 34

[Geoff Wooff]

Ladies were employed on Piece-work doing things like making the Bellows .one quote I recall " girls got paid nine pence to make the bellows" cannot recall if that was from Harry Crabb or Tommy Williams but I think the latter who worked at Lachenal and Co.

 

The Bellows maker would collect the materials and take them home and return to the 'works' with the finnished job... so I would suggest that your relatives might have lived within walking distance of one of the larger manufacturers... a check of dates and addresses might prove enlightening.

 

A Carpenter is a general term for a woodworker.. but most of the fellows employed in the making of concertinas would have described themselves as Cabinet Makers . I know from some of my family census and birth registrations that people at that time were quite specific in their job descriptions and trades were very compartmentalised... several of mine were 'Hammer Shaft manufacturers' .

 

You might find more historic information at www.concertina.com

Edited May 2, 2013 by Geoff Wooff

[LorraineKaren]

Thank you very much Geoff - very interesting!

 

Amazing doing family history - I received some papers in the post from someone I only know via a family history research site from Australia today and was telling my nine year old piano student about this - and then went on to tell her about our ancestors making concertinas - my student is Portuguse and started telling me about their concertinas and how this is traditional and widely played instrument still in Portugal - so we watched some playing on YouTube - it's fascinating what you can learn from and share with someone in a day!

 

Lorraine

[Dan Worrall]

Her birthplace, Clerkenwell, may provide a clue. Both Louis Lachenal and John Crabb worked out of Clerkenwell by 1859, according to Stephen Chambers' history of the Lachenal firm (see footnotes 11 and 12 of http://www.concertina.com/chambers/lachenal-production/ . Clerkenwell was a 'craft district' according to Stephen, which may explain why Mrs. Payne was building concertina bellows - one would guess, maybe she had connections to Lachenal or possibly Crabb. Any chance you could post a photo of her?

 

Cheers,Dan

 

 

Edited May 3, 2013 by Dan Worrall

[Greg Jowaisas]

Any relation?

 

 

[JimLucas]

...my student is Portuguse and started telling me about their concertinas and how this is traditional and widely played instrument still in Portugal...

 

For what it's worth, the instrument the Portuguese call "concertina" isn't the same instrument that your husband's ancestors would have worked on. I believe the Portuguese one is a type of what we would call a button accordion.

[Rod]

The fact that the C F Payne label is applied to the bellows rather than in the more conventional position on the instrument is probably significant. CFP was taking credit for the bellows but probably not for the entire instrument. A good possibility that C F Payne was closely related to Martha . Bethnel Green is within comfortable walking distance of Clerkenwell.

[chris]

possibly Nickolds

chris

[malcolm clapp]

A rather sorry looking 20 key anglo bearing the C F Payne label, again on the bellows only, currently for sale in New Zealand.

 

http://www.trademe.co.nz/music-instruments/instruments/other/auction-587712890.htm

 

Finishes Sunday, so be quick for a look....

 

Interesting bellows papers. Wonder whether the Payne family were responsible for some of the more unusual bellows papers from the early years?

 

Lorraine, any Payne family connection to the printing trade???

Edited May 3, 2013 by malcolm clapp

[LorraineKaren]

Thank you all for your recent posts.

 

You've encouraged me to find the missing records for this family - unfortunately no trace of a CF Payne (although could have been related to Martha's father James - James' father was John Payne and other family branches could have also moved from Lewes, Sussex to London) and no trace of any printing connection.

 

Asking family history research site contact if they have any photos of Martha and Alice.

[wes williams]

It would be worth you searching http://www.historicaldirectories.org/ for C F Payne.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Peter and Lorraine, an interesting posting.

Due to the lack of evidence from existing Crabb records, I cannot confirm a connection with the Payne family and my predecessors. However with reference to the census information supplied and a brief study of other sources i.e. maps, familiarity with the locations mentioned and available historical information, I can, perhaps, offer some personal thoughts for cursory consideration.

As little information is known at present about Alice Payne, I have concentrated on Martha and her father, James, circumstances.

From the 1881 census job descriptions and the family address, it is highly likely that Martha and Alice were initially employed within the Lachenal manufactory as parts makers or instrument assemblers. Yardley Street, being about a 10 minute walk from Lachenals premises in Little James Street (now Northington Street), a road off the Grays Inn Road, would have been an advantage .

Although Yardley Street was, literally, but a few steps from Spring Street (the Crabb address at the time and long since redeveloped) it unlikely that Martha worked with or for John Crabb and his son. Outwork, if any, would have been done via family connections with other trades.

The 1891 census shows that some of the Payne family had removed to 85 Myddleton Road, Bowes Park (a then fast developing late Victorian suburb to the north of London). Perhaps the move was necessary for James, the father, (occupation House Carpenter 1881) to take advantage of the ready work available due to the house building in progress at the time.

It is interesting to note that Bowes Park Railway Station was sited at the end of Myddleton Road. This (originally GNR) station opened in 1880, and connects directly with Kings Cross Station. This latter terminus is situated directly opposite the northern end of Grays Inn Road and because of this, it is possible that Martha may have commuted daily or converted to outworking for Lachenal, making the journey up to the factory weekly or fortnightly to collect and deliver ‘work’.

The 1901 and 1911 census shows a family address in Russel Road, virtually a move around the corner from Myddleton Road. Access and distance to the station would have been the same.

 

In all the census records presented, Martha is shown as employed. This suggests that she was not working on her own account or producing instruments under her own name.

 

A very quick scan of electoral rolls shows that Martha and sister, Jessie, were still resident at 61 Russel Road in 1936

 

Do please keep us informed of any definite information you may find.

 

 

Geoffrey

PS I believe C F Payne was a general music/instrument dealer.

 

[Rod]

Well done Geoff. Splendid research and all very fascinating. I like to think of Martha trundling through the streets and possibly hopping on and off trains, (if she could afford the fare), to deliver the results of her bellows craftsmanship. The knowledge that examples of her work may still be in use to this day gladdens the heart.

[LorraineKaren]

Dear Wes

Thank you very much for the historic directories link - extremely useful for all kinds of research.

 

Dear Geoffrey

Thank you very much for your post - that really has brought history alive - can't wait to show my father-in-law - Alice was his grandmother. Alice married - we believe that Martha and Jessie did not marry - Jessie was a dressmaker. When Alice married her daughter also married a carpenter (doing all the work you mentioned in your post in that area - and was given a house for his work)! James, a twin, father John, originally cames from Lewes, moved to London, Marylebone, Nassau Street in the 1851 census and sadly his first wife Elizabeth and son Charles probably died in the cholera outbreak - James and his daughter Fanny survived.

 

Dear Rod

Thank you - you've brought her alive also - would love to find some of her work!